ST:TMP - Special, Longer Cut...

[Joker]

But the point is, like many of us, we think we know what our creatior is but when we actually encounter Him, He tends to not be exactly what we think but does end up being the answer to everything and completes us as Vejur's Creator (a human) did for it.

I doubt many Christians would accept that their self-inspired image of God and Jesus are completely wrong, and that their existance was a random unintended cosmic glitch rather than design.

I also doubt they'd accept that their Creator is unaware and indifferent to their existance, bears no conscious answers or intentions towards them, and that the path to true enlightenment/Heaven is to discard belief in favour of physical proof.

That's pretty much what occurs in ST:TMP.

The machine planet who gave Vejur the vessel that birthed its first moments of consciousness are more its "Creator" than anything that mankind does in the film. They at least did it on purpose, gifting it with the capacity to complete its mission, subsequently resulting in its first thoughts and flicker of consciousness, instead of tripping over it by accident and failing to even recognise it.

 

[trevanian]

and of course all that 'son of god' stuff that spoils the otherwise wonderful BREAD & CIRCUSES. I don't like to dwell on those bits, but they are part of the record.

Um they didn' mention it was actually Christianity UNTIL they were leaving the Roman planet, and Christianity did kind influence the Roman Empire.

You've got McCoy with "Hark I am the archangel Gabriel" in act 1, which certainly places it in a context that is Western Christian.

 

[ST-One]

TOS never allowed for anything divine to actually exist, why would that change with TMP?

You are trying to see something in there that was never once part of Star Trek.

For once, I really wish you were right, but unfortunately, there are definite TOS indications of 'the one God' that seems to jive with the Christianity stuff, such as Kirk saying "we find the one quite sufficient" (to Apollo, I think) and of course all that 'son of god' stuff that spoils the otherwise wonderful BREAD & CIRCUSES. I don't like to dwell on those bits, but they are part of the record.

Maybe we could call those 'exceptions to the rule'?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

and of course all that 'son of god' stuff that spoils the otherwise wonderful BREAD & CIRCUSES. I don't like to dwell on those bits, but they are part of the record.

Um they didn' mention it was actually Christianity UNTIL they were leaving the Roman planet, and Christianity did kind influence the Roman Empire.

You've got McCoy with "Hark I am the archangel Gabriel" in act 1, which certainly places it in a context that is Western Christian.

Actually that was McCoy joking about how if it wasn't for the Prime Directive he'd be able to beam down if front of less advance civilizations and say that to them and they'd probably believe him.

 

[TigerOfDarkness]

TOS never allowed for anything divine to actually exist, why would that change with TMP?

You are trying to see something in there that was never once part of Star Trek.

For once, I really wish you were right, but unfortunately, there are definite TOS indications of 'the one God' that seems to jive with the Christianity stuff, such as Kirk saying "we find the one quite sufficient" (to Apollo, I think) and of course all that 'son of god' stuff that spoils the otherwise wonderful BREAD & CIRCUSES. I don't like to dwell on those bits, but they are part of the record.

Maybe we could call those 'exceptions to the rule'?

Then there is the Enterprise's chapel shown in The Balance Of Terror.

I'm not a religious person, but the possibility that some of the crew might be religious doesn't bother me.

 

[Data Holmes]

For once, I really wish you were right, but unfortunately, there are definite TOS indications of 'the one God' that seems to jive with the Christianity stuff, such as Kirk saying "we find the one quite sufficient" (to Apollo, I think) and of course all that 'son of god' stuff that spoils the otherwise wonderful BREAD & CIRCUSES. I don't like to dwell on those bits, but they are part of the record.

Maybe we could call those 'exceptions to the rule'?

Then there is the Enterprise's chapel shown in The Balance Of Terror.

I'm not a religious person, but the possibility that some of the crew might be religious doesn't bother me.

I think McCoy nailed it in TWOK. Religion by this time was really looked at as Myth and Legend and a simple tradition that some choose to continue to follow, but it is no longer a "system of faith" anymore. That's been removed from organized Religion and restored as a "personal matter of the individual".

 

[ST-One]

For once, I really wish you were right, but unfortunately, there are definite TOS indications of 'the one God' that seems to jive with the Christianity stuff, such as Kirk saying "we find the one quite sufficient" (to Apollo, I think) and of course all that 'son of god' stuff that spoils the otherwise wonderful BREAD & CIRCUSES. I don't like to dwell on those bits, but they are part of the record.

Maybe we could call those 'exceptions to the rule'?

Then there is the Enterprise's chapel shown in The Balance Of Terror.

I'm not a religious person, but the possibility that some of the crew might be religious doesn't bother me.

It doesn't bother me either.

But the fact remains, that every time the crew of the Enterprise encountered with a divine being it turned out to be not so divine after all.
The Greek gods are just aliens.
I'm sure if they had ever met the god with the capital 'g' there would have been a perfectly 'logical' explanation for his existence.

 

[Joker]

Shatner would still steal His lines.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I think McCoy nailed it in TWOK. Religion by this time was really looked at as Myth and Legend and a simple tradition that some choose to continue to follow, but it is no longer a "system of faith" anymore. That's been removed from organized Religion and restored as a "personal matter of the individual".

I wouldn't go quite that far. McCoy was probably stating his own viewpoint, but not making a judgment for everyone. And even so, one can still be a Christian and not be a literal creationist (perhaps McCoy was just such a person, and he believes the "created in six days" part is the only myth).

 

[USS Mariner]

...perhaps McCoy was just such a person, and he believes the "created in six days" part is the only myth.

I always took that line as incredulous sarcasm, given that the Genesis Device can do in six minutes what people expect(ed) God to in six days.

The fact that he knows about at least that element of the Creation Story doesn't automatically mean he believes or doesn't believe it.

 

[Maurice]

The fact that he knows about at least that element of the Creation Story doesn't automatically mean he believes or doesn't believe it.

That's *a* Creation Story.

Buy I agree with you. I have a passing familiarity with the Ramayana, but that doesn't mean I believe a lick of it. It's like when people mention a TV episode as an analogy to something: doesn't mean you believe the show actually happened.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Kassidy Yates mentioned that her mom wanted a minister to marry her and Benjamin Sisko.

 

[ST-One]

Kassidy Yates mentioned that her mom wanted a minister to marry her and Benjamin Sisko.

Your point?

 

[Gary Sebben]

But the point is, like many of us, we think we know what our creatior is but when we actually encounter Him, He tends to not be exactly what we think but does end up being the answer to everything and completes us as Vejur's Creator (a human) did for it.

This is really.... weird. Basically at the end V'ger learns he's not special, has no purpose and is beholden to something that it perceives as inferior and has completely forgotten it exists.

This would be like a Christian finding out that God was a dog and that that dog made us by taking a dump and didn't even realize it was making something special. And by hanging out with this dog we get the added protection of its superior hearing and sense of smell. This is a slap in the face to a religion that believes its followers are the only intelligent life in the universe and that its God is active, has a plan, and is guiding them through it.

By your measure "Planet of the Apes" is also a Christian movie.

 

[Therin of Andor]

This is a slap in the face to a religion that believes...

So... turn the other cheek.

 

[trevanian]

This is a slap in the face to a religion that believes...

So... turn the other cheek.

I know we disagree strongly on a lotta stuff, but man, that is so much better than what I was going to write! Succinct, but rich.

 

[Gary Sebben]

that is so much better than what I was going to write! Succinct, but rich.

And yet it makes no sense. I mean its clever, I guess...

 

[Captain MAJ]

How bad is it that I so want to watch this cut of the TMP so much that I actually have begone to dig around the net for the LD copy of it and dug out and hooked up the families old LD player...


Why can't we have this put onto DVD already.

Funny that you mention this. I like the Diector's cut, but I so wanted to see the original (for the original effects, cut scenes, etc) that I found the SLV on VHS on Ebay and bought it for $1.00. First time I've watched a VHS in years. Totally worth it. There's something about the original effects that just have an appeal for me.

 

[RobertScorpio]

How bad is it that I so want to watch this cut of the TMP so much that I actually have begone to dig around the net for the LD copy of it and dug out and hooked up the families old LD player...


Why can't we have this put onto DVD already.

Funny that you mention this. I like the Diector's cut, but I so wanted to see the original (for the original effects, cut scenes, etc) that I found the SLV on VHS on Ebay and bought it for $1.00. First time I've watched a VHS in years. Totally worth it. There's something about the original effects that just have an appeal for me.

Yep..same feel I get with I watch the new fx for TOS...I like them, for the most part, but I miss the old ones too. The new ones, which were made decades after the fact, seem hollow...unliving, if that means anything...

Rob

 

[Captain MAJ]

How bad is it that I so want to watch this cut of the TMP so much that I actually have begone to dig around the net for the LD copy of it and dug out and hooked up the families old LD player...


Why can't we have this put onto DVD already.

Funny that you mention this. I like the Diector's cut, but I so wanted to see the original (for the original effects, cut scenes, etc) that I found the SLV on VHS on Ebay and bought it for $1.00. First time I've watched a VHS in years. Totally worth it. There's something about the original effects that just have an appeal for me.

Yep..same feel I get with I watch the new fx for TOS...I like them, for the most part, but I miss the old ones too. The new ones, which were made decades after the fact, seem hollow...unliving, if that means anything...

Rob

I haven't been able to bring myself to by the Remastered TOS DVDs yet. I like my old DVDs. I Like the remastered, but it isn't the same. It's like when George Lucas released his Star Wars Special Editions....it's just not the same....