Spoilers ST Strange New Worlds - Starships and Technology Season Two Discussion

[Macintosh]

Do we have real world examples to draw from, like one navy copying the design of another navy for <reasons>?

The raid on St Nazaire in World War II ("Operation Chariot"). The British used an old destroyer originally built by the US Navy, HMS Campbeltown, and modified it to make it look like a German torpedo boat so at a distance and in the dark it wouldn't stand out as an Allied ship. They did this by removing all the original gun turrets; adding panelling to the deck to break up the outline of its superstructure, provide coverage to people on the deck, and reinforcing the bridge; removing two of the Campbeltown's four funnels; and tilting the remaining two funnels back to match the distinctive rake of the smokestacks of German vessels of the period.

 

[Macintosh]

Then wouldn’t it have made more sense to just steal a ship rather than cobble one together that looks exactly like a ship that already exists?

They'd have to steal it without anyone noticing though, or else presumably Starfleet would flag it as such. A stolen ship might therefore be more obvious than a counterfeit ship.

 

[Dukhat]

They'd have to steal it without anyone noticing though, or else presumably Starfleet would flag it as such. A stolen ship might therefore be more obvious than a counterfeit ship.

Well, Khan stole the Reliant, so…

But yeah, a counterfeit ship would work better under the circumstances.

But don’t be surprised if the design shows up again in the future as a Starfleet background ship…

 

[Macintosh]

Well, Khan stole the Reliant, so…

I thought of the Reliant, but the whole "Khan uses the Reliant for nefarious means" thing seems to happen only hours after the ship is stolen – Starfleet hadn't had time to realise it yet, probably compounded by Khan having taken control of the crew as well as the ship so they could make appropriately soothing noises to any communications Starfleet sent.

But don’t be surprised if the design shows up again in the future as a Starfleet background ship…

Oh, nothing surprises me about starship design recycling any more...

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

202 was rather tech-lite, but still:

- The Enterprise is shown in standard orbit around Earth in this episode. We've seen in Discovery S1 that there is no shortage of space-based facilities (and as of 2-3 years prior to this episode, an incomplete Spacedock), and Enterprise is not berthed at any of them. Of course, unless she was doing any particular repair or resupply activities, there should be no reason for her to be docked to anything, and we've seen assorted starships in orbit of Earth without needing any particular support (Enterprise-D, Defiant...). I guess I'm just spoiled by the TOS-era movies, which largely saw the Enterprise attached to something or other at the beginning or end of an adventure.

- Captain (STILL no first name) Batel is shown here as a competent and effective lawyer. Pretty much all last year though she was presented as a starship captain. Before anyone says "why not both?", it need not be a binary choice... I wonder if her captaincy was related to her JAG work? Bellisario-sponsored TV shows in mind, could Starfleet have a mobile JAG corps or NCIS equivalent stationed aboard their own starship, and have ten-episode seasons' worth of courtroom adventures? It seems to be that this would be more reasonable than having Batel be a starship captain who was suddenly seconded to JAG work on a landmark case, leaving her post on the USS Cayuga to do so.

- And related to that, Una's court-assigned counsel was derided as working for Batel. This could have been a more global observation of the Starfleet JAG corps, or maybe it's because that guy was literally working on Batel's staff, possibly even on the Cayuga?

- The courtroom set was seen as SFHQ Ops in Discovery's fourth season, but prior to that it was Discovery's computer core, other SFHQ rooms, the Section 31 bridge, a transporter room for Spock beaming aboard the Enterprise in a Short Trek minisode, and originally as the bridge of the USS Shenzhou.

- The TOS "Court Martial" truth-teller chair concept is reproduced faithfully here, but in "Court Martial" the glowey thing is on a separate armature to an otherwise-normal TOS chair, albeit clad in red fabric. It's integrated into the armrest here.

- The Enterprise ready room / conference room has gained nice backlit pictures of the NX-01 Enterprise (pretty sure, anyway - but is it the ENT version or the refit..?) and the Phoenix. Also, did it always have that bar on the one side that everyone was lounging around last episode? I also noticed a saddle, meaning Pike has continued his personalization of the space.

Mark

 

[fireproof78]

Bellisario-sponsored TV shows in mind, could Starfleet have a mobile JAG corps or NCIS equivalent stationed aboard their own starship, and have ten-episode seasons' worth of courtroom adventures? It seems to be that this would be more reasonable than having Batel be a starship captain who was suddenly seconded to JAG work on a landmark case, leaving her post on the USS Cayuga to do so.

Batel may have been selected due to some past experience, as well as JAG experience. Though, her personal relationship with Pike should have at least been a eyebrow raise from either the tribunal or the defense.

As for the show idea, I personally would welcome it, though it would be interesting to see if they did NCIS, which is a civilian organization, and none of the agents or special agents are commissioned officers in the US Navy. Most have a law enforcement background, either military or civilian, of some kind, but don't hold a rank, or dress in uniform. I would welcome a JAG series in Star Trek at any level.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

Well, each of the branches of the US military has their own criminal law enforcement divisions (NCIS, CID, AFOSI, etc.). These are not commissioned officers because they don't like the perception of the military policing itself. I guess in Trek we CAN have an NCIS-like organization; we have Temporal Investigations AND Starfleet Intelligence after all. In any case, IF Starfleet is principally a non-military organization, perhaps there's more leeway to have Starfleet JAG and whatever their criminal investigations organization is work side by side. I'd imagine having a deployable legal service would also be an advantage in hashing out treaties, determining second contact writeups, and doing all the other command and admin type stuff once the Enterprise leaves orbit. Hey, I think we just figured out what the red-banded California-class ships do..!

[It's above our pay grade as to whether Paramount would ever consider a sci-fi procedural (it's got a poor success rate even if the industry tries every decade or so... Mann & Machine, Century City, Space Rangers, Mercy Point...), so I digress.]

Mark

 

[fireproof78]

Well, each of the branches of the US military has their own criminal law enforcement divisions (NCIS, CID, AFOSI, etc.). These are not commissioned officers because they don't like the perception of the military policing itself. I guess in Trek we CAN have an NCIS-like organization; we have Temporal Investigations AND Starfleet Intelligence after all. In any case, IF Starfleet is principally a non-military organization, perhaps there's more leeway to have Starfleet JAG and whatever their criminal investigations organization is work side by side.

Which I really don't have a problem with, as I would imagine Starfleet Security (MPs) and JAG would work side by side in investigating. Starfleet Criminal Investigative Services might be utilized in matters involving more local law enforcement or rules.

 

[Tuskin38]

Since the SNW "Crossfield" looks like a similar or identical ship seen at Starbase then it is likely the SNW Crossfields currently look like they do in the episode and no longer like that in Discovery.

Except the one at the starbase shares the same registry number as the one the Klingons built. So it was probably just a mistake.

The one the Klingons built was intended to be unique. Not an existing Starfleet ship but kitbashed from Starfleet parts. They even speculate in Episode 1 that it was built underground.

 

[Dukhat]

Until they reuse it again as a background ship…

 

[blssdwlf]

Except the one at the starbase shares the same registry number as the one the Klingons built. So it was probably just a mistake.

The one the Klingons built was intended to be unique. Not an existing Starfleet ship but kitbashed from Starfleet parts. They even speculate in Episode 1 that it was built underground.

I agree it was likely built underground (M'Benga, like Mitchell, adds to his answer with a "I think") but I'll wait and see on how unique it is as the series goes on. There isn't any dialogue on the Enterprise that went like, "That Crossfield doesn't match any ship in our computer banks. It appears to be assembled from different salvaged ships!"

CHAPEL: I'm not a cave person but for sure this is the biggest I've ever seen.
M'BENGA: Decades of dilithium mining.
CHAPEL: How do you think they got that in here?
M'BENGA: I think they built it.
...
M'BENGA: Have you learned anything useful?
CHAPEL: Um, yeah. The severity of the burns suggest the photon torpedoes are on this ship.
M'BENGA: Maybe with all the other Federation tech they've managed to acquire.
CHAPEL: Why?
M'BENGA: If you have a Federation ship in the middle of a territorial dispute...
CHAPEL: You could use it to attack the Klingons. Start the war all over again.
...
SPOCK: On screen.
ORTEGAS: That's one of ours.
MITCHELL: Crossfield class, I think.
ORTEGAS: And it is heading right for that battlecruiser.
MITCHELL: A Crossfield's no match for a heavy cruiser.​

 

[DEWLine]

It wasn't meant to hold up under scrutiny. Just long enough to reignite the war.

 

[Dukhat]

I agree it was likely built underground (M'Benga, like Mitchell, adds to his answer with a "I think") but I'll wait and see on how unique it is as the series goes on. There isn't any dialogue on the Enterprise that went like, "That Crossfield doesn't match any ship in our computer banks. It appears to be assembled from different salvaged ships!"

CHAPEL: I'm not a cave person but for sure this is the biggest I've ever seen.
M'BENGA: Decades of dilithium mining.
CHAPEL: How do you think they got that in here?
M'BENGA: I think they built it.
...
M'BENGA: Have you learned anything useful?
CHAPEL: Um, yeah. The severity of the burns suggest the photon torpedoes are on this ship.
M'BENGA: Maybe with all the other Federation tech they've managed to acquire.
CHAPEL: Why?
M'BENGA: If you have a Federation ship in the middle of a territorial dispute...
CHAPEL: You could use it to attack the Klingons. Start the war all over again.
...
SPOCK: On screen.
ORTEGAS: That's one of ours.
MITCHELL: Crossfield class, I think.
ORTEGAS: And it is heading right for that battlecruiser.
MITCHELL: A Crossfield's no match for a heavy cruiser.​

The writer of that script probably assumed the VFX department would just use the same Crossfield class that was used in DSC. The dialogue gives me that impression. There have been numerous times in Trek history where the dialogue doesn’t match the visuals.

 

[blssdwlf]

The writer of that script probably assumed the VFX department would just use the same Crossfield class that was used in DSC. The dialogue gives me that impression. There have been numerous times in Trek history where the dialogue doesn’t match the visuals.

I agree but these mistakes tend to take a life on their own so I would not be surprised if different production people later on (and not familiar with this mistake) end up using this same model again. So I'm in the wait and see camp.

 

[Ithekro]

Copy a known starship, complete with registration number would make the debris believable for the Klingons Empire. Evenn if that exact starship comes out for battle in the next week.

If we assume Starfleet was going to fit out a number of Crossfields with Spore drives, than cancelled the project at war's end, there should be a bunch of them around filling in random jobs. Maybe they become the basis for the future California-class ships.

 

[publiusr]

Or Surya/Reliant

 

[Tuskin38]

People working on the show have said it's a frakenship, and kitbash built by the Klingons.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

I can buy that. But I can also buy that they frankenshipped it to look as close to an existing class of ship as possible, to eliminate doubt that it was a frankenship.

I mean, you don't crash a C919 into the ground and then sue Airbus because it looks "close enough" to an A320. It's not like anyone's trying to tell the difference between a Su-27 and a J-11.

(Pause for dramatic effect while people go look that up)

Mark

 

[Dukhat]

I can buy that. But I can also buy that they frankenshipped it to look as close to an existing class of ship as possible, to eliminate doubt that it was a frankenship.

Well, the actual ship it was meant to duplicate was upside down. That totally would have fooled everybody

Seriously, despite whatever the background people say, the scenes with the ship very much seem to indicate that this ship was meant to be the actual Crossfield class. It’s not like Mitchell says ‘I’ve never seen a Starfleet ship that looks like that.’ I mean, what was the point of her saying ‘Crossfield class, I think’ if it wasn’t supposed to be a Crossfield class?

 

[137th Gebirg]

It’s entirely possible that the ship’s transponder, still intact and in the primary hull, at one time belonged to a registered Crossfield. Since it had been torn apart and cannibalized, they kept the transponder intact, ostensibly to fool Starfleet security sensor nets to get in close to its target. It said it was a Crossfield, but on visual scans it had an unexpectedly different configuration and ideally wouldn’t be identified as a threat until it was too late. Pretty simple Trojan Horse strategy, really.

The confusion admittedly emerges from an identically configured ship parked at the Starbase. That I don’t get. The other stuff, however, is easy.