Spock Was First Officer in the Second Pilot

[Hartzilla2007]

Ambassadors, as direct representatives of heads of government, rank somewhere above cabinet members, governors or five-star admirals. Multiplied by 32, plus the fact that some part of the representatives were said to be in an "explosive" state of antagonism. That doesn't sound like an assignment for an unimportant or inexperienced captain.

He's moving them from point A to point B and making sure they don't kill each other not actually negotiating anything, that sounds like the sort of assignment you give to someone who is available. So it was probably less Kirk's reputation that got him the assignment as he wasn't doing anything too important at the time.

I never really got anything from TOS that the Enterprise had the same importance to the cosmos as the Enterprise-D was in TNG.

 

[BillJ]

I never really got anything from TOS that the Enterprise had the same importance to the cosmos as the Enterprise-D was in TNG.

That's because they didn't run around constantly blathering on about being the flagship and the best-of-the-best. The show made it clear that the Enterprise was a special assignment, but one of twelve special assignments.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I never really got anything from TOS that the Enterprise had the same importance to the cosmos as the Enterprise-D was in TNG.

That's because they didn't run around constantly blathering on about being the flagship and the best-of-the-best. The show made it clear that the Enterprise was a special assignment, but one of twelve special assignments.

Nailed it.

 

[Warped9]

I never really got anything from TOS that the Enterprise had the same importance to the cosmos as the Enterprise-D was in TNG.

That's because they didn't run around constantly blathering on about being the flagship and the best-of-the-best. The show made it clear that the Enterprise was a special assignment, but one of twelve special assignments.

Nailed it.

 

[T'Girl]

The show made it clear that the Enterprise was a special assignment

Nah, the TOS Enterprise was the ship that got the little shit assignments. Sure there were a tiny number of glory jobs, but for the most part they were doing every day patrolling, running cargo, checking up on outposts, and doing a whole lot of passager service.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The show made it clear that the Enterprise was a special assignment

Nah, the TOS Enterprise was the ship that got the little shit assignments. Sure there were a tiny number of glory jobs, but for the most part they were doing every day patrolling, running cargo, checking up on outposts, and doing a whole lot of passager service.

I'd say they were a regular ship doing the things regular ships do. Not the "flagship" or a rust bucket.

 

[BillJ]

The show made it clear that the Enterprise was a special assignment

Nah, the TOS Enterprise was the ship that got the little shit assignments. Sure there were a tiny number of glory jobs, but for the most part they were doing every day patrolling, running cargo, checking up on outposts, and doing a whole lot of passager service.

CHRISTOPHER: Must have taken quite a lot to build a ship like this.
KIRK: There are only twelve like it in the fleet.

STONE: Not one man in a million could do what you and I have done. Command a starship. A hundred decisions a day, hundreds of lives staked on you making every one of them right.

DAYSTROM: There are other things a man like you might do. Or perhaps you object to the possible loss of prestige and ceremony accorded a starship captain.

MERIK: He commands not just a spaceship, Proconsul, but a starship. A very special vessel and crew. I tried for such a command.

However one wants to look at it, starship command was seen as something special in the TOS era.

 

[Warped9]

^^ True, but welcome to the revisionist era.

 

[Timo]

Oh, that's bullshit. TOS never did enough to establish a "vision" that would or could be "re-" anything - it gave us eighty-ish hours of an universe, which is damned little.

What the hundreds of other hours of Trek do is put those eighty to a context. And that context is welcome, lest us think that the universe really revolved around Jim Kirk.

However one wants to look at it, starship command was seen as something special in the TOS era.

Sure, as opposed to running an ice cream kiosk. Nothing suggests that Kirk would have been special as far as starship commanders go. Surely we can accept that Starfleet was bigger than Kirk's ship and her dozen or so sisters, rather than stick to silly misconceptions that are theoretically allowed by myopically staring at TOS only - things on par with "Spock was the first Vulcan in Starfleet" or "The Federation was founded during the second season".

Nah, the TOS Enterprise was the ship that got the little shit assignments.

Well, that much is onscreen fact.

One might argue that Kirk got those because his ship was the only thing that moved in outer space. But "Charlie X" already puts that argument to the proper context: there were hard-working people like Kirk doing humbler jobs with humbler ships.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Warped9]

It's not bullshit. It's exactly what it is.

 

[Timo]

Is, too. (Or isn't, too, I forget which. After all, it has been a few decades since arguments like that carried weight in my life.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Warped9]

^^ Whatever, man. All you ever do when I see your posts is indulge in revisionism that puts down the show in some way or other. I don't know why you bother talking about a show you've developed such a disdain for. That would be like me haunting the JJtrek forum just to piss on it, which would be such a collosal waste of my time.

Besides which some trot that crap in here enough as it is.

 

[Timo]

...puts down the show in some way or other

How so? TOS was absolute* crap in terms of production values, yes - but the universe in all its weirdness is fascinating, and is enhanced by being put in context.

And no, that doesn't mean that what came later was better. It means that a context was born because TOS inspired it. And that inspiration is all we have, until we one day end up with Star Trek whose production values aren't a Hollywoodian distraction best ignored, and might themselves be included as a worthy part of the Trek universe. Until that glorious day, the starships and their shuttles that woosh by are best "interpreted".

Really, how is saying "Jim Kirk wasn't the axis around which the TOS universe revolved" a disparaging approach? Why should it not be argued that he was a working stiff rather than a superhero? I never got a superhero vibe out of TOS, and I have real hard time thinking the makers intended anything of the sort. Kirk was shown having great adventures, but he wasn't shown running either the Federation or its Starfleet, or even being indispensable to either. (Until TMP, that is, and there they made appropriate fun of the concept.)

Timo Saloniemi

* Relatively speaking, it wasn't badly done at all. But relative is uninteresting - I don't watch TOS (or TNG) for historical reasons. I can ignore cardboard sets for the excitement of the story. And the dull derivativeness of the story for the excitement of the world-building.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I don't watch TOS (or TNG) for historical reasons. I can ignore cardboard sets for the excitement of the story.

For crying out loud, can we bury the "cardboard sets" myth about TOS already? They knew how to build wooden flats in the 1960s. It wasn't some magic technology that we suddenly discovered in 1987.

The only time the cardboard sets myth had any validity was in the munitions dump in Errand of Mercy, that we saw for, what, maybe a minute of screen time?

It's fine to criticize TOS, but criticize it for what it was, a well-made television show that time has passed by in certain ways. There's no need to make things up about it just to put it down.

 

[Timo]

Argh. "Cardboard sets" isn't supposed to be literal. CGI can produce that effect just as well, and unfortunately also just as often. It's not a "myth", it's an expression.

, I suppose.

The only time the cardboard sets myth had any validity was in the munitions dump in Errand of Mercy

Interesting! (In terms of historical research, that is. Not my cup of tea when it comes to Star Trek, is all. Hollywood is boring. But some trivia is fun.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[telerites]

Argh. "Cardboard sets" isn't supposed to be literal. CGI can produce that effect just as well, and unfortunately also just as often. It's not a "myth", it's an expression.

, I suppose.

The only time the cardboard sets myth had any validity was in the munitions dump in Errand of Mercy

Interesting! (In terms of historical research, that is. Not my cup of tea when it comes to Star Trek, is all. Hollywood is boring. But some trivia is fun.)

Timo Saloniemi

Didn't some of this catch on after the Saturday Night Live sketch with John Belushi as Kirk, Androyd as McCoy and Chevy as Spock?

That was such a classic - "The Last Voyage of the Enterprise". If you haven't seen it - it available on youtube. They start coming taking the cardboard set down at the end. Kirk won't give up the command

I miss those old SNLs - back then it was classic comedy so many great skits and guests.

 

[J.T.B.]

He's moving them from point A to point B and making sure they don't kill each other not actually negotiating anything, that sounds like the sort of assignment you give to someone who is available. So it was probably less Kirk's reputation that got him the assignment as he wasn't doing anything too important at the time.

As long as whomever was available would be able to handle potential international incidents. Which may apply to many Starfleet captains, but would not likely be trusted to one without some significant experience.

I never really got anything from TOS that the Enterprise had the same importance to the cosmos as the Enterprise-D was in TNG.

Me neither. As I said above, TOS Enterprise fits the historical cruiser's brief, especially in the British colonial era. Sometimes the mission was important, sometimes routine, sometimes military, or policing, or diplomatic, or just showing the flag. It's also more analogous to the pre-aviation world, when a navy vessel was the fastest way for government officials or diplomats to travel long distances. But I've never thought of the TOS ship as unique or elite.

 

[Timo]

As long as whomever was available would be able to handle potential international incidents. Which may apply to many Starfleet captains, but would not likely be trusted to one without some significant experience.

Hmm. I don't see how such handling would be possible in the first place. Indeed, it doesn't seem that any takes place in the episode. The diplomats are the people supposed to deal with incidents - a soldier barging in would be far more trouble than worth. (Perhaps Kirk's expertise shows in the fact that he never tries to do anything about the diplomatic mess?)

If Sarek kills the Tellarite, and the Andorian immediately buys a round of tranya for everybody to celebrate the fact, after which the Halkans go berserk and thrash the place, what is Kirk to do about it? There's no doubt a textbook response, and supposedly everybody in Starfleet can read. Initiative, no matter how experience-backed, would risk disaster!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

Sure, as opposed to running an ice cream kiosk. Nothing suggests that Kirk would have been special as far as starship commanders go.

Everything is relative. You seem to be going out of your way to try and contradict what was clearly laid out on screen. Did the Enterprise handle routine assignments? Of course, it did. It handled whatever was going on in the sector of space it was responsible for. No where did they state that Kirk stood out from the rest of starship commanders. What they did make sure to point out, multiple times in the series, was that starship command was special, in and of itself.

Surely we can accept that Starfleet was bigger than Kirk's ship and her dozen or so sisters, rather than stick to silly misconceptions that are theoretically allowed by myopically staring at TOS only - things on par with "Spock was the first Vulcan in Starfleet" or "The Federation was founded during the second season".

Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't, but there is no proof in TOS that Starfleet was this huge organization. Or that there were any ships bigger or more advanced than the Constitution class. There is no proof about the age of the Federation either. Even dropping the UESPA stuff, I always got the feeling that the Federation was a newer organization than the other shows interpreted it as being.

I hold nothing against the newer shows, I find much of it entertaining. But I always am leery of writers who had nothing to do with the original series reinventing it. For me, the original Star Trek stands apart from its more modern offspring, including the Abrams films (which I love). The creators experiences and working conditions are totally different and it shows.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

He's moving them from point A to point B and making sure they don't kill each other not actually negotiating anything, that sounds like the sort of assignment you give to someone who is available. So it was probably less Kirk's reputation that got him the assignment as he wasn't doing anything too important at the time.

As long as whomever was available would be able to handle potential international incidents. Which may apply to many Starfleet captains, but would not likely be trusted to one without some significant experience.

Of course if experience were the end all be all they probably would have gotten Wesley or Decker to handle it seeing as the're Commodores, or hell pre nutso Garth.

Not to mention that the other Starfleet captains we've seen probably have more experience than Kirk seeing as their noticeably older than he is.

So while Kirk was highly skilled he was in what seemed to be an organization of people just as skilled people even more skilled than he was.

I never really got anything from TOS that the Enterprise had the same importance to the cosmos as the Enterprise-D was in TNG.

Me neither. As I said above, TOS Enterprise fits the historical cruiser's brief, especially in the British colonial era. Sometimes the mission was important, sometimes routine, sometimes military, or policing, or diplomatic, or just showing the flag. It's also more analogous to the pre-aviation world, when a navy vessel was the fastest way for government officials or diplomats to travel long distances. But I've never thought of the TOS ship as unique or elite.

I always though the TOS Enterprise being the top dog was a plus, as it was kind of annoying when modern trek made everyone the uber badass of Starfleet flying the most important things in it.