Or, Starfleet had an inkling something was up on the border and sent a ship it believed capable of handling it?
Spock Was First Officer in the Second Pilot
- Thread starter Ryan Thomas Riddle
- Start date
Or, Starfleet had an inkling something was up on the border and sent a ship it believed capable of handling it?
...Without bothering to tell Kirk? He had some sort of "secret" orders to avoid violating the RNZ (Really? Secret orders not to commit acts of war?), but that's all we hear about him being prepared for what happens.
Okay, yes, that's a good hypothesis all right. Kirk could have been Starfleet's insurance against an unpredictable threat. But if so, why did he have to wait for orders or clearance from his superiors (this "We finally received an answer from Command Base" business)?
This might also tie to the thread subject: perhaps Stiles' concern about Spock was closer to the mark than we'd think, and Starfleet specifically sent not just Kirk but in fact Spock, either because they wanted their one and only Vulcanoid expert on the spot - or wanted to see how the potential Romulan mole would behave?
Timo Saloniemi
Okay, yes, that's a good hypothesis all right. Kirk could have been Starfleet's insurance against an unpredictable threat. But if so, why did he have to wait for orders or clearance from his superiors (this "We finally received an answer from Command Base" business)?
This might also tie to the thread subject: perhaps Stiles' concern about Spock was closer to the mark than we'd think, and Starfleet specifically sent not just Kirk but in fact Spock, either because they wanted their one and only Vulcanoid expert on the spot - or wanted to see how the potential Romulan mole would behave?
Timo Saloniemi
What exactly would they need to inform Kirk of? You let him know that you suspect the Romulans are prepping for war and you may give him an itchy trigger finger.
Kirk knew what he needed to know prior to the attacks. That he was patrolling the border of an adversary. In and of itself, that should've told Kirk something was up.
If I'd recently gotten orders that my ship was expendable, I might formulate some sort of notion that something might be up. 
The preponderance of evidence points toward the TOS Enterprise being comparable to an early-to-mid 20th century naval cruiser in peacetime (and indeed she is generally considered a cruiser): A prestigious command for a full captain, given a wide range of colonial, diplomatic and military missions, and able to concentrate with others of her type into a "mini battle line" in wartime.
There are a number of missions of international importance that would indicate an experienced and valued commander. Denying Organia to the Klingons as a wartime base. Negotiating for strategic resources with the Halkans. Supporting a full ambassador in opening relations with Emeniar VII. Transporting 32 ambassadors to a major conference. A "top-secret diplomatic mission" involving two warring planets. Opening treaty negotiations with the planet Gideon. That's what I come up with immediately.
There are a number of missions of international importance that would indicate an experienced and valued commander. Denying Organia to the Klingons as a wartime base. Negotiating for strategic resources with the Halkans. Supporting a full ambassador in opening relations with Emeniar VII. Transporting 32 ambassadors to a major conference. A "top-secret diplomatic mission" involving two warring planets. Opening treaty negotiations with the planet Gideon. That's what I come up with immediately.
The fact is that there's nothing on-screen requiring that the question be raised to begin with - no reason to assume that Spock's assignment is any different in this episode than in those that follow. One might as well argue over where McCoy and Chekov were assigned during the period of the pilot.
In the absence of any evidence on-screen to contradict it, the statement by the writer is the only authoritative source that exists.
Actually considering Kirk couldn't use the actual name of the place they were going in his log which implies a considerable level of secrecy it's possible the Enterprise could have been picked for that based on not being important enough for anyone to suspect it as the actual diplomatic transport.
I would think it would indicate that Captain's Log entries aren't considered entirely secure. Not about the status of the ship carrying the delegates.
Though it does bring to mind a question: The Enterprise seems to have no issue ferrying 30+ delegates and staff, yet in "Elaan of Troyius", Uhura had to give up here quarters to accommodate the Dohlman. Did the Enterprise undergo some kind of refit or increase in crew compliment between the two episodes?
Yet "full Captain" is here put in the relative context of other commanders of like ships already holding the rank of Commodore, and indeed the rank of "two and a half braid" is but one (half!) step above that of the CO of a supply ship with 25 crew. We don't even know if Kirk's rank corresponds to the four pips of Picard, or is half a rank below that...
Conversely, all of these might be missions indicating secondary status at best. Being sent to the remote Organia when a war is raging elsewhere - then running at the first sight of Klingons, leaving the CO and the XO stranded; ferrying an official to a target that has warranted no action in the fifty years since the last visit (which involved a starship loss!); transporting 32 out of supposedly hundreds of ambassadors as mere part of a wider effort; being so inconspicuous as to be used for secret missions; being abandoned and expended at Gideon.
Timo Saloniemi
Indeed - we saw that both Rand and McGivers had use of a standard "captain" cabin set, so clearly there were alternatives on board before the Communications Officer had to surrender her bed.
Without doubt Uhura's cabin must have some special feature that the others lack, which IMO is a luxurious en-suite bathroom with a whirlpool bath and other mod-cons. I'm sure she managed to persuade "Bobby" from The Man Trap to do the renovations while he was fixing her door, he seemed very susceptible to her charms!
Ambassadors, as direct representatives of heads of government, rank somewhere above cabinet members, governors or five-star admirals. Multiplied by 32, plus the fact that some part of the representatives were said to be in an "explosive" state of antagonism. That doesn't sound like an assignment for an unimportant or inexperienced captain.
We know from "Tomorrow is Yesterday" that the Starfleet rank of lieutenant is equal to captain, USAF, just like a naval lieutenant. Three steps up is Starfleet captain. That puts it right in line with the navy rank of captain today, and there is no reason to think otherwise.
There is no reasonable standard by which a government investing its international negotiating authority in an individual would be deemed "insignificant."
Yet this is the very thing that did not take place: the UFP had Kirk ferry various negotiators, but Kirk himself only got involved in negotiations by chance. Except theoretically at Gideon, but there he never got to negotiate anything, being expended as a pawn in a bizarre game.
It could be argued the ship had a lot of "issue" with the "Journey to Babel" job - Kirk himself was displaced to Deck 5 from his usual lodgings! Spock probably only got to keep his cabin because it would have been too much hassle to cool it down and ramp down the gravity...
As the cabins are all built around a standard set, it's a fairly safe bet that the decisive difference between them would be in location. They do lack certain amenities - so being located close to those would be of importance.
There is the fact that the rank identifier is deliberately different - not just missing a braid, but replacing one of the remaining solid braid with a "half", thus creating an identifier nonsystematically missing from the classic system. Yet soon afterwards, the "four solid" identifier is again seen to stand for Captain. Do Captains come in two varieties in Starfleet?
Timo Saloniemi
It could be argued the ship had a lot of "issue" with the "Journey to Babel" job - Kirk himself was displaced to Deck 5 from his usual lodgings! Spock probably only got to keep his cabin because it would have been too much hassle to cool it down and ramp down the gravity...
As the cabins are all built around a standard set, it's a fairly safe bet that the decisive difference between them would be in location. They do lack certain amenities - so being located close to those would be of importance.
There is the fact that the rank identifier is deliberately different - not just missing a braid, but replacing one of the remaining solid braid with a "half", thus creating an identifier nonsystematically missing from the classic system. Yet soon afterwards, the "four solid" identifier is again seen to stand for Captain. Do Captains come in two varieties in Starfleet?
Timo Saloniemi
It happened multiple times. With the Organians, the Halkans and the Capellans as well as Gideon.
The only reason the stripes are relevant is that they show clearly that there are 6 levels inclusive between ensign and captain. Just like in the US Navy. The TNG pips have no bearing on that.
I can't believe I am arguing once again that Kirk was not an insignificant junior officer and Enterprise a minor vessel only assigned the most routine duties. It has lost its charm, if it ever had any.
It is an argument that is completely contradicted by what we see in the actual episodes.
Tellarites do not argue for a reason, they simply argue.
So they changed the rank insignia. Doesn't seem like a big deal.
Perhaps Starfleet decided that since in TOS' time, rank was denoted by sleeve stripes, it might be a good idea to decrease the amount of stripes used for every rank, so as to not make it look quite so gaudy. And when TNG came around, and rank was once again signified by small pips on the collar, Starfleet went back to the old system. Seems simple enough.
So they changed the rank insignia. Doesn't seem like a big deal.
It wasn't. The notion that there are "two kinds of captains" in Starfleet is utter nonsense.
It was a costuming decision, nothing more - it was felt that the traditional stripes were just too gaudy on the relatively simple and unadorned uniforms.
You could do what I did a long time ago. Put Timo on ignore. He trots this argument out on a regular basis, or at least he used to, and I got sick of it years ago.
Now I don't see it unless someone argues back, and I'm much happier for it.
Sorry, Timo, but you've alienated a few people over the years. I'm one of them.
For the record I fully realize that there are some people who have put me on ignore, probably for similar reasons. I've got no problem with it. Do what you have to, to stay happy.
Now I don't see it unless someone argues back, and I'm much happier for it.
Sorry, Timo, but you've alienated a few people over the years. I'm one of them.
For the record I fully realize that there are some people who have put me on ignore, probably for similar reasons. I've got no problem with it. Do what you have to, to stay happy.
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