Spock News

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Vger23, Aug 2, 2018.

  1. DaveyNY

    DaveyNY Admiral Admiral

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    We're only ten years before TOS and counting down...
    I honestly can't believe folks expected to see this time period be anything but TOS related. :confused:

    Personally, when I first heard about DISCOVERY, I was thrilled that this was the Era They were going to deal with.
    I'm a little less thrilled now, just because of so many of the visual changes, but I'll get over it eventually.
    I still like the show.
    (even though I can't afford to pay CBS to watch it)
    :sigh:
     
  2. mos6507

    mos6507 Commodore Commodore

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    Naked Time emotionalism = okay becase an artificial force was preventing Spock from controlling his emotions. It's not that the emotional capacity isn't there, but that Spock has learned to control it, and under normal circumstances, he should not be prone to outbursts the way he was in Kelvin-trek.

    "The Women!", "Check the Circuit!" Smiling when saying "ah, your earth emotions" at the chess-board, those are mistakes.

    My opinion is that in today's culture there is no appreciation for stoicism. The speech Quinto gives in the Falcon-wannabe in Into Darkness frames Vulcan logic as a character-flaw. So the interpretation of the character is inverted and they looked for any and all opportunities for Spock to blow a gasket under the idea that emotional repression is worse than just letting it all out, even if that "letting out" means running down Khan and beating him to a pulp.

    The true message of Spock is that impulse control is actually a good thing, up to a point.

    I also think acting with subtlety is a lost art. The joy in watching Spock in TOS or the TOS films was parsing moods and emotions from behind Nimoy's cloak of stoicism. He did not merely act like a robot. There were always very mild ups and downs. I just don't think modern audiences who watch Pew Die Pie let's play videos with all this screaming and hollering have any interest in that.

    I just think it's a pure corporate marketing decision to skew Spock towards more of an emo direction and all of the rationalizations that it really does link perfectly into canon is disingenuous.
     
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  3. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Nope. They're part of his character.
     
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  4. mos6507

    mos6507 Commodore Commodore

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    We'll have to disagree on that point. While you're at it, go to youtube and watch Nimoy relate the origin of the character because he's on my side. Why Nimoy, at the end of his life, endorsed Kelvin-Trek, is beyond me.
     
  5. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Because he's a human who's opinion can change over time.
     
  6. DaveyNY

    DaveyNY Admiral Admiral

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    Because he understood at that point that the Spock character in his early years, was like a teapot on the verge of boiling, but having the flame set just below the boiling point.
    :techman:
     
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  7. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk A Spock and a smile Premium Member

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    How can they be mistakes? They happened first.
     
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  8. DaveyNY

    DaveyNY Admiral Admiral

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    ... and have never Officially been denied nor altered/changed.
    :techman:
     
  9. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, they're right there in "The Menagerie", after the "normal" Spock was established. If the circumstances weren't so dire, McCoy probably would've been taunting Spock over the smile as soon as they saw it.
     
  10. BillJ

    BillJ The King of Kings Admiral

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    They do link perfectly to canon. Whether or not you like it is another story.
     
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  11. plynch

    plynch Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Wow, you are all so smart to know that previous Trek series have had callouts and crossovers to other series. I had never noticed after 52 years of watching Star Trek. Thanks!

    Frankly I think THOSE earlier tie-ins sometimes implied a doubting of the current show to stand on its own. They were overdone, both the overt ones and character similarities like Pulaski.

    Be that as it may, making Spock's family a ("the"?) major arc or season-long plot; and having Pike take over as captain as the hero ship? This seems to approach a difference in kind, not degree. Enh, like what you like, but I'm pretty sure I'm right about this. I'm actually OK with THIS part of the DSC S2, the TOS tie-ins! If they don't want to let DSC go have its own adventures, what do I care? I love TOS.

    Oddly, it is the focus on family backstory (soap opera) I THINK I won't like. We'll see.
     
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  12. BillJ

    BillJ The King of Kings Admiral

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    Worf was definitely brought in to "save" Deep Space Nine, which was faltering in the ratings compared to TNG.
     
  13. plynch

    plynch Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I fell into a rewatch with my wife halfway thru S2 and it is fine without him. Garak, Dukat, slimey Kai, several guest Cadassians, all great. I can't wait for Weyoun. Who needs Worf?! Apparently the ratings. Did they improve?
     
  14. eschaton

    eschaton Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    There was no real spike in ratings after Worf came on though. Of course, maybe without Worf the show would have slid even further. I guess we will never know.
     
  15. Trekfan12

    Trekfan12 Captain Captain

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    Don't forget "THE WOMEN!" exclamation from Spock
     
  16. Noname Given

    Noname Given Admiral Admiral

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    My bad. I guess I caught hat one ("Deathwish") in reruns and thought it was still S1 and before "The 37's". I have of late seen a few more ST:VOY eps on both BBC America and The Heroes&Icons channel, but to the point - if it was the second season where they brought Riker and Q on; it doesn't change the fact that Star Trek has never had an issue borrowing from itself for ratings.
     
  17. jaime

    jaime Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Or, it’s always different when it’s different.
    DSC ties it’s lead directly to three TOS characters. It has the hero ship from TOS show up in its last episode of its first season. It has two or three episodes tie directly to a concept that starts in TOS but had three or four episodes in Ds9...difference being Ds9 did them over years, not almost a third of their first season, arguably all of the first season, as in discovery’s case. Two other episodes guest starred another TOS character. It would be hard to identify an episode of DSC that stands alone without this ties, in just its first fifteen episodes. We can pick the odd episode here and there, but with the exception of ENTs last season, no Trek has ever leaned as hard into established Trek lore for its story beats and set-up. If you were to edit out every link to TOS and established Trek, you would literally have no show left. This is not true for any of the other series, though you can argue Ds9 would be similarly decimated because of Worf and O’brien...but there we have a different situation that is obviously ‘different’ because that was literally the result of being made and written at the same time as the shows to which it ties were on the air. DSC has no such logical reason.
    It’s prequelitis.
     
  18. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Admiral Admiral

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    I legitimately think a lot of you are too hung up on "Oh my God! Too many TOS characters! It doesn't stand on its own!" I think you (in general not specifically you) all are focusing on the TOS elements disproportionately.

    Let me break this down episode-by-episode:

    "A Vulcan Hello" --> On the protagonist end: The focus is on Georgiou and Burnham with Saru as a secondary focus. Not TOS characters. On the antagonist end: The focus is on T'Kuvma with Voq trying to get in good with him and L'Rell taking notice. Again, not TOS characters.

    "Battle at the Binary Stars" --> Same as "A Vulcan Hello". Burnham has a mental-link with Sarek and we get flashbacks with Sarek and with Burnham first meeting Georgiou on the Shenzou but the focus is clearly on Burnham. The major deaths are Georgiou and T'Kuvma. Sarek is a secondary character through and through. Since he doesn't even show up in person, besides the flashback, I'd even argue he's a tertiary character.

    "Context Is for Kings" --> This is very obviously all about the mysterious and unconventional Lorca, with Burnham being instantly accepted by him and with Burnham having to prove herself to everyone else. Also getting us off on the wrong foot with Stamets by showing how much of a prick he is. At least here.

    "The Butcher's Knife Cares Not for the Lambs Cry" --> The focus is on Burnham, Lorca, and Stamets. Plus Landry gets killed. And Discovery shows itself off with its nifty Spore Drive by saving those colonists from the Klingons. Big Hero Moment for the Discovery that puts the ship on the map. Meanwhile L'Rell saves Voq from Kol.

    Four episodes in and TOS isn't the main focus of anything. Four episodes in and DSC stands on its own just fine. I'm saying this here because the next episode is...

    "Choose Your Pain" --> The introduction of Ash Tyler. L'Rell is set up as the main Klingon we'll be dealing with in this series. And the re-introduction of Harry Mudd for the first time (in live-action) in 50 years!!! This is the first time we're seeing Harry Mudd in 50 years, half a century, and he's not even a main character. He's very much a supporting character, who Lorca leaves behind... reinforcing the idea that Lorca is an unconventional asshole. It's less about anything Mudd did and more about what Lorca did. That and L'Rell gets her battle scars, but that must've hurt!

    So five episodes in. A TOS character is the tertiary focus in one episode and a TOS character is the secondary focus of another. But it looks like we'll be seeing these two characters on a more regular basis so we have to start thinking of them as DSC characters as well. Luaxana Troi made three appearances on DS9. Gowron actually made more appearances on DS9 than he did on TNG, becoming a recurring character. And Kor, from TOS, appeared three times. That's not even getting into Worf and the O'Briens. So, let me repeat: you have to start thinking of Mudd and Sarek as DSC characters as well. But they're not primary characters. Continuing on.

    "Lethe" --> The A-plot is Lorca and Cornwell. The main tension is Cornwell finding out what's wrong with Lorca and him trying to figure out what to do once he knows she knows something is up. Sarek is very much the B-plot and the main source of conflict is on how much his decision effected Michael Burnham. The argument favors Burnham's point of view. We, as the audience, are supposed to side with her, not him.

    "Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad" --> Yeah, we've got Harry Mudd, but we've also got Burnham, Tyler, Tilly, high as a kite Stamets... Lorca getting blown up all kinds of crazy ways. Harry Mudd's in it but, let's be honest, who really gives a shit? If this is someone's issue with the episode, all I have to say to them (again, not talking about you) is: lighten up and get over yourself! Also: this is the first time anyone from TOS is a main focus... and he's the antagonist!

    "Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum" --> This is a Saru-focused episode through and through. With a secondary focus on Burnham and Tyler.

    "Into the Forest I Go" --> Discovery scores a major victoriy against the Klingons with its 133 Jumps. The focus is on Lorca and Stamets on one end with Burnham fighting Kol and rescuing Cornwell on the other end, while Tyler gets PTSD. How is this focusing on TOS? It isn't. How is this DSC not standing on its own? It is standing on its own.

    Then we go into the Mirror Universe. But guess what? So has DS9. So has ENT. And guess what? ENT: the series that so many people on here love to death for reasons I can't figure out why at all, leaned on TOS far more heavily when it went into the Mirror Universe than DSC ever did going into the Mirror Universe. So, if people love "In the Mirror Darkly" but hate the Mirror Universe in DSC because of reasons like "TOS!!!!" then that's some hypocrisy. If you don't happen to like what DSC did, then that's just personal taste. Which happens to not be the same as mine. So, continuing on...

    "Despite Yourself" --> Shows the crew of Discovery adapting to the Mirror Universe. Everyone who's focused on: Lorca, Michael, Tyler, and Tilly are all DSC characters. The Mirror Universe itself feels more like the DS9 Mirror Universe than the TOS Mirror Universe. But they do a pretty good job of explaining the Mirror Universe. If you never saw TOS in your life, you'd still be brought up to speed. The audience isn't stupid. "They're in an evil universe!" It's as simple as 2+2. And Culber gets killed by AshVoq. The focus is 100% on Disco. Sure, Lorca claims he wants to go looking for the Defiant but they bring us up-to-speed about that as well. And Lorca doesn't even really give a shit about the Defiant. It's just his excuse to get him and Burnham off Discovery and heading toward the Shenzou.

    "The Wolf Inside" --> Burnham et al finally reach the Shenzou, word gets out she's back and that brings us to Georgiou. This is Disco through-and-through. At one point when Burnham has to destroy an enemy outpost, the sole TOS character we see is Sarek -- whose MU counterpart we never even saw in the Mirror Universe! -- and I've already established earlier that I consider him a DSC character as well so we're not going to continue beating this dead horse every time he appears. Sarek is a DSC character now. Get used to it. The main conflict in the scene is between Burnham and Mirror Voq, with AshVoq from the Prime Timeline almost fucking things up.

    "Vaulting Ambition" --> All about Burnham, Georgiou, and Lorca. And the Big Reveal that Lorca's from the Mirror Universe. This is 100% Discovery. No TOS, except in one instance when it's outright rejected. Georgiou tells Burnham looking for the Defiant is ridiculous.

    "What's Past Is Prologue" --> Lorca's faction vs. Georgiou's faction. Discovery rescues Burnham while she rescues Georgiou in the process.

    Back to the Prime Universe...

    "The War Without, The War Within" --> Is about cleaning up mess that happened in the aftermath of Discovery's disappearance since it was so strategically important to the Klingon War. The situation is so bad, Cornwell approves of Mirror Georgiou's plans. Nothing TOS-centric in this to speak of.

    "Will You Take My Hand?" --> After a detour through the Orion Embassy on Qo'noS, Burnham figures out a way to reach L'Rell thus ending the Klingon War. Everyone's rewarded and this is all DSC-centric until the very end of the episode when Pike's Enterprise shows up... giving Haters to very excuse they crave to sceam "Fanwank!!!" This is Red Meat. The TOS music at the end doesn't help either. I enjoyed the ending but I know this is ammo for the other camp, unfortunately. Then again, the other camp seems pretty joyless when it comes to this series.

    And that's it. Dissecting it like that, DSC doesn't lean on TOS anywhere near as much as some people claim. And viewers are brought sufficiently up-to-speed with anything that comes from somewhere else.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
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  19. BillJ

    BillJ The King of Kings Admiral

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    I think the difference is that the other shows spent more time developing their own characters and narratives before jumping into the TOS pool.

    I know TOS, I don't know Discovery. I'd rather spend the first couple of seasons getting to know Discovery. It already feels like most of the Discovery cast is going to be guest stars in their own show in season two.
     
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  20. Jadeb

    Jadeb Commodore Commodore

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    But if you pull back and look at the big picture, you have half the season devoted to the Klingons, who have been done to death in Trek previously, and the other half devoted to the Mirror Universe, a fan-service trope that was cheesy even in TOS. Add in Spock's secret sister; Super Sarek, who can be anywhere and everywhere; Harry Mudd (twice); a Tardigrade plot lifted from "Devil in the Dark"; a single planet-based episode that basically rehashes "This Side of Paradise"; and a season cliffhanger that is literally nothing more than the Enterprise showing up, and you get the makings of the complaint (legitimate, in my opinion) that the show leaned too heavily on what came before.