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Spider-Man: Homecoming' anticipation thread

As an allegory, it falls apart because here the "Wrong" side aren't really in the wrong to be afraid. This isn't skin color prejudice, mutants really are dangerous to defenseless Humans.

Well, it connects to the idea that they're often instinctively feared because they born differently. The point of the story then is to reflect on real life; how do we treat people different from us because of how they were born?

It's not, because Humans aren't allowed to be important voices in this series. Xavier presumes to speak for them when he should just ask them what they want.

Fair point, but not what I meant. The story suggests that there are essentially two possible outcomes, either mutants and humans can learn to coexist peacefully, or one will dominate at the expense of the other. Professor X and Magento each favor one position and present arguments for them.

Thanks to lazy writing.

I don't get it. He was in X2 since he was the lead villain. He was in Origins: Wolverine since that movie dealt with Wolverine's past in Weapon X, making him a logical character to appear. His appearance in Days of Future Past made sense; Trask was using the military to help further his experiments and Stryker being involved with mutants and mutant experimentations is a good set-up for his own future involvement with Task Force X and Weapon X in the original timeline.

X-Men is about more than them.

As I recall, the comics constantly shift the team rosters. The movies picked a specific roster to work with, and, understandably, prefer using characters the general public will know.

Bare bones, once again.

I've seen worse. A lot worse.

The movies had the chance to address the problems the comics ignored...and didn't.

I forget, what problem is this?

He gave them their first base, their vehicles and equipment and assembled the team. No one cared.

Their CIA ally was killed in an attack by the Hellfire Club. As I recall, they spend the rest of the movie trying to stop the Club's master plan.

Why not? Because Mutants are no longer all innocent victims for once?

Part of the point of the movie is that the Sentinel project was in development long before the war (which had already been established in X3, with the X-Men running Sentinel training exercises in their holodeck). Mystique murdering Trask inspired others like him to advance the project (and unwittingly gave them the tools to take the later models up to eleven). Besides, having the Sentinel already underway gives a rational for Trask vivisecting mutants, which is one of the reasons Mystique wants him dead.

(FYI, the movies have never shown mutants to be all innocent victims -- e.g. the Hellfire Club and the various iterations of the Brotherhood --- nor have they shown all humans to be hostile oppressors or evil -- e.g. Moira McTaggart, the two unnamed US presidents, the humans we're told risked their lives helping mutants hunted down by the Sentinels in the Days of Future Past timeline. Even Senator Kelly got a redemptive scene of sorts before his passing in the first movie.)

That the repetitiveness is lazy?

It's move and countermove of the "cold war" (for lack of a better term). A mutant terrorist makes a strike to further his cause (movie 1), a human retaliates (movie 2). I found the exact plots to be different enough, but if you didn't, fair enough.

As usual, the story blames Humanity for everything.

As I recall, a mutant was the one considered responsible for the problems by assassinating a mark at a high profile event.

But they hardly even try, that's the point.

I will concede some characters aren't given much to do (Cyclops is not an important character in these stories, case in point), and it other cases, there are numerous characters who are one-shots. However, the movies do give many of the supporting characters beats, materials, and other stuff make them more than just paper cutouts. For example, notice how Rogue is very humanized in the first movie, despite essentially being a plot device? Case in point, most of her train scenes before the attack have no bearing on the plot and are only there to give her depth.

Another funny fact, most of the added scenes in the extended edition of Days of Future Past were character beats for the supporting characters (Bishop's cell now voice concerns about the plan, it's confirmed that Kitty and Ice Man were a couple in the future, we even get more insight into the Maximoff home).

And outing them would be a shake up in the status quo they could do good stories with and actually advance the premise for once.

The X-Men: Evolution cartoon actually did a pretty good job with that premise. Not sure if the movies needed to do it too, though.

Unveil the school, make sure it gets tons of cover from the press, have it turn out Xavier has allies in the Government who have Mutant children or mutant family members and have been working to shut down Kelly, have the X-Men be more willing to work with the Government to work out solutions and integrate better.

Didn't Ultimate X-Men have them going public like that? If I recall correctly, it didn't work so well for them.

The X-Men have historically been terrible with PR, which the movies could focus on and resolve.

How much would PR help? While I'm sure some mutant prejudice is derived from fear of mutants using their abilities to harm people, there's also been the simple fear of them since they're different from "normal" people. Notice how mutants with powers that are really harmless (like the boy with the lizard tongue in X2) aren't treated any differently from mutants who could be real threats if they chose to be criminals?

Forming X-Factor and stuff. ADVANCING the premise.

Isn't that the plan for the future movies?
 
What are you even talking about?

That the X-Movies keep shoving it down our throats how mutants are always innocent and everything bad is due to Humans, they don't even portray Magneto as being bad when tried to destroy all Humanity in X2.

Well, it connects to the idea that they're often instinctively feared because they born differently. The point of the story then is to reflect on real life; how do we treat people different from us because of how they were born?

It ignores how this isn't about being just "born differently", it's about them having powers than can harm and kill innocent defenseless Humans.

X-Men came up with the interesting idea of "Hey, what if fear the others wasn't irrational for once and maybe they had a sort of point?" and did nothing with it.

The story suggests that there are essentially two possible outcomes, either mutants and humans can learn to coexist peacefully, or one will dominate at the expense of the other. Professor X and Magento each favor one position and present arguments for them

That just devolves the whole story into just being a game between these two.

I don't get it. He was in X2 since he was the lead villain. He was in Origins: Wolverine since that movie dealt with Wolverine's past in Weapon X, making him a logical character to appear. His appearance in Days of Future Past made sense; Trask was using the military to help further his experiments and Stryker being involved with mutants and mutant experimentations is a good set-up for his own future involvement with Task Force X and Weapon X in the original timeline.

They didn't need to make him such a focus in X2, Origins wasn't that good a movie and he didn't HAVE to be in DOFP. Unfortunately Singer likes his own creations (honestly, Stryker is more his than the comic version) than the characters he's supposed to be adapting.

As I recall, the comics constantly shift the team rosters. The movies picked a specific roster to work with, and, understandably, prefer using characters the general public will know.

Too bad so little is done with them. Fox's attitude hasn't evolved since 2000.

I forget, what problem is this?

Of humans not being wholly wrong, and how the X-Men are rather incompetent at their missions.

Their CIA ally was killed in an attack by the Hellfire Club. As I recall, they spend the rest of the movie trying to stop the Club's master plan.

They don't mourn him or feel sad or even say his name. It was like he didn't exist. Their anger is over the mutant comrades who died.

Besides, having the Sentinel already underway gives a rational for Trask vivisecting mutants, which is one of the reasons Mystique wants him dead.

Yeah, that part where we're supposed to feel bad that murderous terrorists got what they deserved. And no, I don't care about that "It was to make up feel for Mystique" nonsense.

As I recall, a mutant was the one considered responsible for the problems by assassinating a mark at a high profile event

And the movie tries to make us feel like she was justified. Because no mutants here can just be jackasses who justify Humanity's position.

For example, notice how Rogue is very humanized in the first movie, despite essentially being a plot device? Case in point, most of her train scenes before the attack have no bearing on the plot and are only there to give her depth.

Yes, too bad they did little with her beyond just making her another of Logan's "teenager sidekicks".

And it wasn't due to her not having powers either, the X-Men Evo version of Rogue just had her absorbing powers and she was one of their best characters.

Didn't Ultimate X-Men have them going public like that? If I recall correctly, it didn't work so well for them.

The 616 comics had them go public too. And even if it causes problems, progress will bring that. And it shows Xavier as more than a Cult leader.

How much would PR help? While I'm sure some mutant prejudice is derived from fear of mutants using their abilities to harm people, there's also been the simple fear of them since they're different from "normal" people.

Because it discredits Kelly by showing that they really aren't hiding, they're out in the open and get media coverage and all that stuff. People aren't going to learn to be more tolerant if mutants are hiding away all the time and FEEDING the fear by not being willing to meet humans mid-way.

As for the future films...it's been 16 years, too little too late.
 
That the X-Movies keep shoving it down our throats how mutants are always innocent and everything bad is due to Humans, they don't even portray Magneto as being bad when tried to destroy all Humanity in X2.

While you did direct this to @Thestral, I have have to disagree, the movies have done no such thing and in fact, the X2 scene you're talking about portrayed Magneto as being just as bad as Stryker.

It ignores how this isn't about being just "born differently", it's about them having powers than can harm and kill innocent defenseless Humans.

Notice though, how the inherent assumption is that all mutants are assumed to automatically be a threat?

X-Men came up with the interesting idea of "Hey, what if fear the others wasn't irrational for once and maybe they had a sort of point?" and did nothing with it.

Not all the movies are about the human/mutant conflict. Also, the point the movies seem to be making is that neither side can be given one singe label.

That just devolves the whole story into just being a game between these two.

Why is that a problem? The movies aren't the comics, they don't have to be the same thing.

They didn't need to make him such a focus in X2, Origins wasn't that good a movie and he didn't HAVE to be in DOFP. Unfortunately Singer likes his own creations (honestly, Stryker is more his than the comic version) than the characters he's supposed to be adapting.

I explained why I thought the character's usage made sense when it was. If you disagree, fair enough.

Too bad so little is done with them. Fox's attitude hasn't evolved since 2000.

Speaking for myself, I'd rather have a smaller cast of characters I know better than constantly changing the roster for no reason. I'd also rather keep the focus more on the characters introduced early on in the movies, since their stories are part of the reason I keep coming back.

Of humans not being wholly wrong, and how the X-Men are rather incompetent at their missions.

Huh.

They don't mourn him or feel sad or even say his name. It was like he didn't exist. Their anger is over the mutant comrades who died.

It's been too long since I saw the movie for me to comment further on this. From what I recall, though, I think you're reading too much into this point.

Yeah, that part where we're supposed to feel bad that murderous terrorists got what they deserved. And no, I don't care about that "It was to make up feel for Mystique" nonsense.

I didn't feel sorry for Trask dying, but that still doesn't justify his murder and the movie takes that route.

And the movie tries to make us feel like she was justified. Because no mutants here can just be jackasses who justify Humanity's position.

Young Professor X says this when discussing Mystique's plan to murder trask: "Just because someone stumbles and loses their way it doesn’t mean they’re lost forever."

We also get this in a deleted scene where Wolverine tells her what her plan will do to her: "You're a cold murderous [bleep] [in the future]!...By the time they finish you - and they finish you - you've killed so much you're knee-deep in human AND mutant blood, you don't even know who you are!"

While we may have sympathy for why she tried to do it (which is often what makes the best villains), the movie condemns it every step of the way; the whole point of the movie is to stop it from happening, for pete's sake! You can't get more specific than that.

Yes, too bad they did little with her beyond just making her another of Logan's "teenager sidekicks".

X3 didn't. The second movie kinda did, but she wasn't a lead character in that one.

And it wasn't due to her not having powers either, the X-Men Evo version of Rogue just had her absorbing powers and she was one of their best characters.

Agreed on Evolution. That cartoon version is my favorite take the character.

The 616 comics had them go public too. And even if it causes problems, progress will bring that. And it shows Xavier as more than a Cult leader.

Xavier was a cult leader? He was headmaster of a school, as I recall. (Also, interesting to note, after the Stryker incident in X2, he takes the evidence to the president for deposition rather then leaving it all "within the family, so to speak."

Because it discredits Kelly by showing that they really aren't hiding, they're out in the open and get media coverage and all that stuff. People aren't going to learn to be more tolerant if mutants are hiding away all the time and FEEDING the fear by not being willing to meet humans mid-way.

Maybe neither side is exactly willing to meet the other halfway, although the movies have shown why mutants feel hiding is their most viable option.

As for the future films...it's been 16 years, too little too late.

Since we don' know the exact plans and how much longer the series will last, it's a bit too early to make a judgement call on that.

(Since this is a Spider-Man thread, have we been off-topic for too long now?)
 
That the X-Movies keep shoving it down our throats how mutants are always innocent and everything bad is due to Humans, they don't even portray Magneto as being bad when tried to destroy all Humanity in X2.

That's utter nonsense and you know it.

Yeah, that part where we're supposed to feel bad that murderous terrorists got what they deserved. And no, I don't care about that "It was to make up feel for Mystique" nonsense.

Banshee was a murderous terrorist? Regardless, no they didn't "get what they deserved." Vivisection and experimentation is cruel and horrific treatment no matter what crime - and that was just the ones we know about who were villains.

And the movie tries to make us feel like she was justified. Because no mutants here can just be jackasses who justify Humanity's position.

What is "humanity's position" and why should it be justified? And yeah, shocking that a movie would have more complicated villains Evil Jackasses.
 
The "X-Men" saga is about humans, whether they are mutants or not.
True, in the very first movie, Professor X describes the conflict as being between "mutants and the rest of humanity" (my emphasis).

(To get this slightly on track, as a reader of the Ultimate Spider-Man comics, I find it interesting that Spider-Man seemed to have more dealings with the X-Men than any other superheros.
 
The "X-Men" saga is about humans, whether they are mutants or not.

Which just adds to the problem. Xavier and Magneto make Mutants out to be some separate species from humans rather than just a new breed of human.

(To get this slightly on track, as a reader of the Ultimate Spider-Man comics, I find it interesting that Spider-Man seemed to have more dealings with the X-Men than any other superheros.

And rightfully, he said that the reason people don't like the Ultimate X-Men isn't because they're mutants, it's because they're assholes...but then again, that was true of everyone in the Ultimate Universe except Spidey.
 
Which just adds to the problem. Xavier and Magneto make Mutants out to be some separate species from humans rather than just a new breed of human.

Magento seems to make the distinction, but I don't think the X-Men do as much. As I said before, in the first movie, when describing the problem, Professor X casually refers to mutants being part of humanity. A deleted scene in X2 has Storm assuring a young mutant that they are all humans. I think the reason for the "distinction" is a concise way to distinguish mutant humans from non-mutant humans.

And rightfully, he said that the reason people don't like the Ultimate X-Men isn't because they're mutants, it's because they're assholes...but then again, that was true of everyone in the Ultimate Universe except Spidey.

I do remember that story. On the other hand, people seemed to instinctively fear mutants in a way they didn't other superpowered people.
 
Magento seems to make the distinction, but I don't think the X-Men do as much. As I said before, in the first movie, when describing the problem, Professor X casually refers to mutants being part of humanity. A deleted scene in X2 has Storm assuring a young mutant that they are all humans. I think the reason for the "distinction" is a concise way to distinguish mutant humans from non-mutant humans.

It makes them seem like segregationists, especially with the Cult-Like attitude.

I do remember that story. On the other hand, people seemed to instinctively fear mutants in a way they didn't other superpowered people.

That's because mutants have really terrible PR while other heroes are better at it. It doesn't help that Ultimate Magneto was always making it look like all mutants were in it together to wipe out humanity.

Then again, the Mutant Hatred in the Ultimate Comics was so over the top it became ridiculous. That isn't how racism and prejudice works.
 
Then again, the Mutant Hatred in the Ultimate Comics was so over the top it became ridiculous. That isn't how racism and prejudice works.
Certainly it is, but that is exactly how racism and prejudice work. Mutants can magnify that hatred a few times over because they aren't just an inherently "inferior" part of humanity, they're a "corruption" of humanity. Between the religious fundamentalists, the social conservatives who don't want the world to change, the opportunistic douchebag politicians, the people who are just afraid of goddamn everything, etc. I can absolutely see a large segment of the population (not to mention the establishment) treating Mutants as badly as the comics often have.
 
Certainly it is, but that is exactly how racism and prejudice work. Mutants can magnify that hatred a few times over because they aren't just an inherently "inferior" part of humanity, they're a "corruption" of humanity.

Most racists aren't lunatics out to commit genocide, they're just scared and ignorant people who don't any better. X-Men gives us stuff like anti-mutant hate groups who do things like creating artificial plagues they infect people with to make them think Mutants are the cause.

I'm sorry, that isn't the action of a bigot. It's the action of a deranged psychotic.

Between the religious fundamentalists, the social conservatives who don't want the world to change, the opportunistic douchebag politicians, the people who are just afraid of goddamn everything, etc. I can absolutely see a large segment of the population (not to mention the establishment) treating Mutants as badly as the comics often have.

We should see more of the other end of the spectrum, mutant worshiping Humans who think they're Gods or the New Breed of Humanity here to "cleanse us" and doing things like political assassinations of people they think stand in their way. We should also see the covert actions of Government and Military Officials who have mutant spouses or children doing what they can to protect them and discredit the anti-mutant types.
 
Most racists aren't lunatics out to commit genocide, they're just scared and ignorant people who don't any better. X-Men gives us stuff like anti-mutant hate groups who do things like creating artificial plagues they infect people with to make them think Mutants are the cause.

I'm sorry, that isn't the action of a bigot. It's the action of a deranged psychotic.
If your definition of morality and the society around you deems it not only good but necessary, you'll find quite a few normal people will act like deranged psychotics.

As for super viruses and the like, it is a comic book so they have to ramp up the drama and the stakes. One could argue quite successfully that the first decade or two of AIDS was very much a plague that the government and even much of the scientific and medical communities allowed to be blamed on homosexuals.
We should see more of the other end of the spectrum, mutant worshiping Humans who think they're Gods or the New Breed of Humanity here to "cleanse us" and doing things like political assassinations of people they think stand in their way. We should also see the covert actions of Government and Military Officials who have mutant spouses or children doing what they can to protect them and discredit the anti-mutant types.
I don't disagree with this.

This whole conversation is wildly off topic though. Perhaps a new thread is in order.
 
^ That's actually California Adventure - the Paradise Pier section from the looks of that picture. Could be trying to double for Coney Island.

EDIT: Correction - it's for a Dell laptop commercial, not for the film.
 
The Venom movie is officially moving forward.

The announcement comes from Sony alone and not Sony/Marvel. Will it be MCU?

The desperate way they keep trying to make this movie a thing is both pathetic and funny. Especially since its a movie about a character who has spent 90% of his existence as a murderous monster. It will be kind of hilarious if this isn't connected to the SM movie (because if its not an MCU movie, I doubt it could be connected to Homecoming). i really, really doubt this ends up getting made, but it will be...interesting to see, if it happens.
 
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