Spoilers Spider-Man: Brand New Day grade and discussion thread

[Gryffindorian]

There's bias towards Jean Grey's character as "not" being a villain. This is understandable, considering how she's publicly perceived as a hero, a member of the X-Men. As @Guy Gardener stated, there were no X-Men in this universe, no mutants, no Charles Xavier, no School for Gifted Youngsters, and these are evidently true. None of these were featured in the movie.

Had Jean Grey's name in the film been different, "Jan Gray" or "Jane Grey" or "Ginger Gris," I'm willing to bet many wouldn't think twice about perceiving her as a villain. Yes, she was victimized. She was hurting, desperate. Not saying she had no right to be angry. Now in a future Disney X-Men film, she would be destined to be a superhero.

The fact that Ghost is a member of the Thunderbolts, a heroic superpowered team, doesn't undo or cancel her being the villain in Ant Man and the Wasp. Another analogy would be Darth Vader, who committed atrocities beyond measure. Was he a villain? For 99% of the original SW trilogy, he was, until he was "redeemed."

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm just wondering where in Damage Control's mandate does it say that they are allowed to terminally vivisect human beings, to forward parapsychology?

Are they still Hydra?

 

[Anwar]

There's bias towards Jean Grey's character as "not" being a villain. This is understandable, considering how she's publicly perceived as a hero, a member of the X-Men. As @Guy Gardener stated, there were no X-Men in this universe, no mutants, no Charles Xavier, no School for Gifted Youngsters, and these are evidently true. None of these were featured in the movie.

Had Jean Grey's name in the film been been different, "Jan Gray" or "Jane Grey" or "Ginger Gris," I'm willing to bet many wouldn't think twice about perceiving her as a villain. Yes, she was victimized. She was hurting, desperate. Not saying she had no right to be angry. Now in a future Disney X-Men film, she would be destined to be a superhero.

The fact that Ghost is a member of the Thunderbolts, a heroic superpowered team, doesn't undo or cancel her being the villain in Ant Man and the Wasp. Another analogy would be Darth Vader, who committed atrocities beyond measure. Was he a villain? For 99% of the original SW trilogy, he was, until he was "redeemed."

Oh yes, Darth Vader...unrepentant child murderer for 20 years and then because he did ONE good deed he's redeemed of all crimes and goes to "Force Heaven"...

 

[theenglish]

Okay, so I finally saw this tonight.

I still don't get why it's okay for Spider-Man to interact with Yelena and have Punisher as a Co-star and then make so much of the story be about Jean instead of Peter and it's heralded as some "Great Story"...

...When Brave New World did the same with Ross and the Leader and somehow that made Sam's movie "Bad".

That wasn't the problem with Brave New World. The problem that movie had was that it had been so chopped up and put back together none of its themes were coherent, there were no real personal stakes or emotional development for Sam, and the side characters had no personality. It was just impossible to become emotionally invested in that movie. Brand New Day is pretty much the opposite. The long run time gives all the characters an opportunity to have a moment, some real grow and emotional stakes, and still leave plenty of time for Peter who's on screen almost the entire movie.

 

[theenglish]

Oh yes, Darth Vader...unrepentant child murderer for 20 years and then because he did ONE good deed he's redeemed of all crimes and goes to "Force Heaven"...

That's Catholicism for you.

 

[Skywalker]

Frankly, I found it to be too much about the other characters and not enough about Peter.

This isn't right at all. Aside from Yelena, who was mostly there for exposition and some comic relief and had no real arc of her own, the other featured superheroes all served as reflections of Peter and had a purpose in furthering his character development. The Punisher was a warning of what could happen to Peter if he continued to isolate himself from the rest of the world. Banner/Hulk helped Peter come to understand that he shouldn't try to suppress his new abilities or ignore the spider within, but to accept and embrace them. Jean Grey served as a way to show how much Peter has grown and changed since Homecoming, when he was still reliant on Tony Stark's technology and mentorship; now he's the experienced adult helping a young hero navigate this scary new world.

The whole movie was about Peter.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

The fact that Ghost is a member of the Thunderbolts, a heroic superpowered team, doesn't undo or cancel her being the villain in Ant Man and the Wasp. Another analogy would be Darth Vader, who committed atrocities beyond measure. Was he a villain? For 99% of the original SW trilogy, he was, until he was "redeemed."

^ The single greatest failing of the OT. Vader's last-second act of pure self-interest was not redemptive in nature or heroic, nor does it erase the 20+ years he spent committing genocide and totalitarian rule across the galaxy. Although Lucas did not intend the following to be true, ROTS-Anakin only reinforced the fact Anakin/Vader was a truly irredeemable person, and would remain so for the remainder of his life.

That wasn't the problem with Brave New World. The problem that movie had was that it had been so chopped up and put back together none of its themes were coherent, there were no real personal stakes or emotional development for Sam, and the side characters had no personality.

Agreed; Spellman initially said the film was going to be a "paranoid political thriller" and was supposed to build on the great character development from his TFATWS streaming series, but that was gutted for whatever reason (probably Marvel Studios bending to the insufferable bitching from the Right-leaning MCU fans who were "offended" by the intelligently applied real world history in the story).

Whatever the cause, BNW was a failure for the Sam Wilson Captain America, and I can tell you among innumerable Black MCU fans, they reference the BNW failings and fear Sam Wilson will be sidelined / marginalized to "Cap in name only" or sidekick status in Doomsday--with Evans' return being the top of suspected reasons.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Well, not to put too fine of a point on it, but Brand New Day is simply a much, much better movie than Brave New World was.

Indeed. As I've said before, it all comes down to the writing. Brave New World is an absolute mess. It has a lot of great ideas but the execution of those ideas were terrible and didn't flow well with each other.

Compare that to Brand New Day (my godsdamn dyslexia is going to mix up these titles at some point...), where similarly there are a lot of great ideas, but I argue they were better executed and worked much better with each other.

Also, everything thenglish said.

This isn't right at all. Aside from Yelena, who was mostly there for exposition and some comic relief and had no real arc of her own, the other featured superheroes all served as reflections of Peter and had a purpose in furthering his character development. The Punisher was a warning of what could happen to Peter if he continued to isolate himself from the rest of the world. Banner/Hulk helped Peter come to understand that he shouldn't try to suppress his new abilities or ignore the spider within, but to accept and embrace them. Jean Grey served as a way to show how much Peter has grown and changed since Homecoming, when he was still reliant on Tony Stark's technology and mentorship; now he's the experienced adult helping a young hero navigate this scary new world.

The whole movie was about Peter.

Exactly. Thank you for saying what I was thinking so I didn't have to say it.

 

[fireproof78]

That's Catholicism for you.

He achieved enlightenment and ascended to a higher plane by releasing his karmic debt.

 

[theenglish]

^ The single greatest failing of the OT. Vader's last-second act of pure self-interest was not redemptive in nature or heroic, nor does it erase the 20+ years he spent committing genocide and totalitarian rule across the galaxy. Although Lucas did not intend the following to be true, ROTS-Anakin only reinforced the fact Anakin/Vader was a truly irredeemable person, and would remain so for the remainder of his life.



Agreed; Spellman initially said the film was going to be a "paranoid political thriller" and was supposed to build on the great character development from his TFATWS streaming series, but that was gutted for whatever reason (probably Marvel Studios bending to the insufferable bitching from the Right-leaning MCU fans who were "offended" by the intelligently applied real world history in the story).

Whatever the cause, BNW was a failure for the Sam Wilson Captain America, and I can tell you among innumerable Black MCU fans, they reference the BNW failings and fear Sam Wilson will be sidelined / marginalized to "Cap in name only" or sidekick status in Doomsday--with Evans' return being the top of suspected reasons.

Yep, there were noticeably cut scenes in the movie. When Ross calls Wilson "Boy", the reaction in the movie is different than the reaction we saw in one of the trailers. The one scene that was meant to be poignant, when he talks with Bucky, ends with a joke that dismisses the significance of the conversation that preceded it. I can go into several other examples but this isn't the Captain America thread.

 

[theenglish]

He achieved enlightenment and ascended to a higher plane by releasing his karmic debt.

I was thinking, he died after having his sins absolved by and receiving last rights from a priest.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

The A.V. Club's Caroline Siede wrote about Jean Grey...and how refreshing she found the film's take on the character.

There's are the biggest highlights from the article:

That’s why it’s refreshing that Brand New Day switches up the formula by having a Jean who’s bad from the start. Her storyline here isn’t tied to the Dark Phoenix arc, which the MCU could theoretically still adapt whenever it finally goes all-in on mutant storytelling. (Though the Disney/Fox merger brought the X-Men under the MCU umbrella in 2019, Sink’s debut is the first time Marvel has done more than just import a Fox favorite into its interconnected universe.) But even if this Jean does get Phoenix-fied at some point, at least she’ll be transforming from a different starting point than a reserved young woman scared of her own repressed abilities.​

.​

.​

.​

Because Brand New Day ends with Jean going free after saving Peter’s life in return, some may assume we’re supposed to see her as redeemed by the end. But fittingly, the movie leaves her in more of a gray area. A sympathetic flashback explains that Jean and Sara’s mom abandoned them when their powers emerged, which, along with Sara’s eventual kidnapping, helps explain the core wound that drives Jean’s villainy. Yet the flashback also makes a point to emphasize that Jean and Sara were using their creepy body-hopping abilities well before there was any actual need to. It was a game for them; an example of the casual cruelty that can fester in the wake of parental rejection and social othering.​

​

While there’s plenty of the grief-driven DNA of Wanda Maximoff (Elizabeth Olsen) in this Jean, the MCU character she most resembles is Loki (Tom Hiddleston). Like the trickster god of the Thor franchise, Jean uses her “gifts” to do objectively malicious things. (He tried to take over the world in The Avengers; she just takes over a few blocks in New York City.) Yet, like Loki, it’s clear we’re ultimately supposed to like and sympathize with her. They’re both characters who allow vindictiveness to creep in when they feel rejected or dismissed by the family and institutions around them. But they’re both characters who can be pulled back from the brink with love and empathy too. (It helps that Sink and Hiddleston excel at projecting a forlorn vulnerability beneath tough exteriors.) Much as Loki turned over a new leaf with his brother in Thor: The Dark World and then forged a found family on his TV show, Jean is steered towards heroism in a way that can now extend into whatever version of the X-Men that Marvel eventually decides to launch in earnest.​

​

And, yes, I appreciate Siede's point of view in calling Jean a villain.

 

[theenglish]

Yeah, that's nice. Loki is the villain she most resembles is interesting.
I was thinking that she resembles Hulk as she is being ruled by her grief and anger in this movie and the way Peter talks her down is reminiscent of how Natasha talked Bruce down when he was Hulked out.

 

[camdudetenger2018]

A question about Jean Grey.
We’ve seen 3 different movie versions now.
Which one is the closest to the comics and cartoons?

i never really red the comics but the movies verisons are kinda different from the cartoon verisons

but at the same time the 3 and a half of the x men cartoons verisons are different from each other

x men 97 is the half part because its not only a sequel from the original 1992 x men cartoon but at the same time kinda like a seperated cartoon from the original 1992 x men cartoon

 

[camdudetenger2018]

Well, technically the Famke Janssen/Sophie Turner versions of Jean Grey are the same character, and that would be the version closer to the comics.

Unlike Sadie's Sink's Jean, Jean in the comics had supportive parents and her sister is not a mutant.

what if the sadie sink jean grey is not jean grey but the clone madeline pryor

 

[Anwar]

what if the sadie sink jean grey is not jean grey but the clone madeline pryor

I'm sincerely hoping they never use that moronic storyline from the comics. I don't care if current writers "Redeemed" Maddy....her whole existence was a stupid idea to begin with.

 

[fireproof78]

I was thinking, he died after having his sins absolved by and receiving last rights from a priest.

It never really felt like that but I can see that. But, Lucas always said it was a mix of Catholicism and Buddhism with the Jedi. Plus, not enough Purgatory.

 

[kirk55555]

An absolutely amazing movie. I've long been of the opinion that Tom Holland is good as Peter/Spider-Man but his movies are a mixed bag (really liked No way Home, didn't like Homecoming or Far from Home) but this was absolutely great, a top 5 MCU film at minimum. All of the side characters played their roles perfectly and worked well, especially Punisher. This movie is the first time I've ever thought that the existence of The Punisher in a shared universe was justified, he worked way better here then in Daredevil or in his mediocre solo efforts. He bounced off of Peter well and even worked as a reflection of a route Peter shouldn't go down (the almost absolute loner). Punisher even got to show emotions besides angry and broody and it fit the character well, and he actually wore his skull logo throughout most of his scenes.

Hulk/Banner I liked and was another good reflection of Peter's problems (losing control), although he had the least "character" of the guest characters because of Banner's very short screen time. This movie was the first time I actually liked (and not just tolerated) MJ and Ned. Now that the teenage/school era of Peter & his friends is long done I find them much more compelling, I even wouldn't mind them having bigger roles after this film.

Peter / Spider-Man himself is great. I have always said that teenage/high school Peter is the worst version of the character in any context, and now even more then No Way Home we get to see Holland play adult Peter, one with personal problems but who is all in on being Spider-Man, and he's great at it. You could see how his focus on being Spider-Man was hurting his life but he still felt like Peter just trying to do good while his life was tumbling down around him. I loved getting to see him be a Spider-Man who is in his crime fighting groove, even having a connection to DeWolff to help flesh out the Spider-Man side of his life. The montage fighting villains was a great way to show that Peter has been actively being Spider-Man since we last saw him, and has had battles/adventures off screen. The action in the movie was very good, maybe the best Spider-Man action in live action, and even the film making (which I rarely notice unless its bad) seems like a step up.

Jean was an interesting villain. She definitely did some bad stuff but we can see why she was desperate and made bad decisions, it will be interesting to see her in the context of the X-Men.

Overall I loved this film. I think I'll need to rewatch No Way Home, the first two Raimi movies and BND to determine my favorite Spider-Man film and the general order I'd put the good Spider-Man films into but honestly BND is a movie I can't see going below second place and has a real shot at first.

 

[JD]

what if the sadie sink jean grey is not jean grey but the clone madeline pryor

No, no, no I haven't read her whole storyline first hand, but I've read some fairly detail descriptions and the whole thing was a fucking mess, and the MCU needs to stay very far away from it. And from a storytelling/character perspective, it really makes no sense to introduce Jean's clone before they introduce Jean. And having all of this as part of Jean's backstory starts the character off at a pretty interesting place, and I'd hate to see them suddenly decide it wasn't really her. There is absolutely nothing about this idea that appeals me.

 

[theenglish]

Why are so many people bending over backwards trying to create scenarios that distance Jean from the crimes she commits in this movie? I find it odd.