Spoilers Spider-Man: Brand New Day grade and discussion thread

[Turtletrekker]

Jean was a victim. So was her sister. Did she commit acts that are questionable? Absolutely. Does that make her a villain? It all comes down to intent. Honestly, I think any lawyer could make the argument for her acting in self-defense against an aggressor with unintended side effects and consequences.

In the X-Men Companion published in 1982, Chris Claremont mentioned that he had a conversation with a lawyer who said that Jean as Dark Phoenix was acting under diminished capacity and was not entirely control of her actions and that in real world circumstances he could have gotten charges dismissed.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

It's a Grey area.

I deliberately avoided saying that but, yes, exactly that.

I don't see any problems. Jean Grey was a villain in the story. Not saying she was the only one. Can't a villain be complicated?

Yes, they can be. Granted I'm probably splitting hairs here, but I see a difference between villain and antagonist. Intent being one qualifying factor as noted by Turtletrekker.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Jean was a victim. So was her sister. Did she commit acts that are questionable? Absolutely. Does that make her a villain? It all comes down to intent. Honestly, I think any lawyer could make the argument for her acting in self-defense against an aggressor with unintended side effects and consequences.

In the X-Men Companion published in 1982, Chris Claremont mentioned that he had a conversation with a lawyer who said that Jean as Dark Phoenix was acting under diminished capacity and was not entirely control of her actions and that in real world circumstances he could have gotten charges dismissed.

I'm entirely on board with the reality that Damage Control made themselves and their bases a legitimate target under the circumstances. I can even squint enough to consider she maybe knew Peter would stop MJ' s fall and that her threatening all the civilians at the end was a case of overwhelming emotion combined with a literally brand new power boost she can't possibly fully comprehend yet. But walking that random guy into traffic really has no possible extenuating circumstances at all. That indisputably crossed a major line between fighting to save her sister and just indiscriminantly murdering or maiming just because she was mad at the world.

I love the movie and it works great as its own self contained story. I also agree she's nowhere near the first mcu hero to have blood on her hands. But I'm not at all loving this level of blood as an introduction for Jean Grey of all characters.

 

[camdudetenger2018]

lol lol i have this theory

what if that is not jean grey and its actually her clone that mister sinister created madeline pryor

 

[theenglish]

I'm entirely on board with the reality that Damage Control made themselves and their bases a legitimate target under the circumstances. I can even squint enough to consider she maybe knew Peter would stop MJ' s fall and that her threatening all the civilians at the end was a case of overwhelming emotion combined with a literally brand new power boost she can't possibly fully comprehend yet. But walking that random guy into traffic really has no possible extenuating circumstances at all. That indisputably crossed a major line between fighting to save her sister and just indiscriminantly murdering or maiming just because she was mad at the world.

I love the movie and it works great as its own self contained story. I also agree she's nowhere near the first mcu hero to have blood on her hands. But I'm not at all loving this level of blood as an introduction for Jean Grey of all characters.

I don't know about that. As I mentioned in a couple of posts upthread, there is really a lot of rich story telling power left after this movie for Jean Grey in the X-Men movies. This could be a great replacement for the tired Dark Phoenix storyline as Xavier helps Sadie recover from her past and find some way to redeem herself. Some of the best MCU stories have fallen into this type of storyline, so why wouldn't it work for Jean?

 

[Gryffindorian]

And take a look at her situation. Her sister is kidnapped by a government agency. She is contained without charge or representation and murdered while in custody and now the same people are after her. Who is Jean supposed to go to? If she goes to any authorities, she'll just wind up right where her sister was, and indeed did wind up there and in the same situation and facing the same fate.

And people expect her to just go, "oh well I guess I'll just die then"? How else could she have responded? What else could she have done? Sure, her response had unfortunate effect, and there should be consequences for it. However, she was not the diabolical villain that some people here seem to want to make her out to be. She was put into a desperate situation which required desperate measures. She did not ask or choose to be put into that situation. And I and as I said earlier, this is the stuff redemption arcs are made of and that's where compelling storytelling comes from.

It seems pointless to argue what she could or should have done, but since we're on it ... Anyone could go against any government official, organization, agency if they felt a crime or evil had been committed. Why do you think people have rallied against ICE? Military officials, Cabinet members, have had to answer to a higher authority, or appear before a congressional hearing, Spider-Man doesn't live in a totalitarian society where the citizens would feel threatened, but Jean thought it would be easier to use her telepathy than do the right thing. I never said she was diabolical , but she had malicious intent.

 

[theenglish]

I never said she was a diabolical villain, but she had malicious intent.

This is a good way to describe her character.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

I deliberately avoided saying that but, yes, exactly that.

You're a better man than i.

 

[Tuskin38]

Jean was not a mandate from the studio

Inside 'Spider-Man: Brand New Day' Director Destin Daniel Cretton's Record-Breaking, Bittersweet Weekend

Spider-Man: Brand New Day director Destin Daniel Cretton opens up about the film's box office, including Jean Grey and that Wonder Man cancellation.

www.thewrap.com

 

[Saul]

BTW, has anyone seen this on screen X? I've seen previous Spiderman movies on screen X but the sides of the cinema usually only have projection for the action scenes. Is it the same again here?

 

[JD]

I think it might be the whole movie, they keep making a big deal about how it was shot for Sceen X, so that makes me think the whole movie uses all three screens.

The problem is you're insisting on treating this as a black-and-white issue when there's more nuance to Jean's situation.

I don't think anyone is saying she's not at fault. As I argued in detail yesterday, she at least deserves some empathy but, at the same time, she is still responsible.

Yeah, she is definitely responsible for what she did, but I think it was understandable.

Jean and her sister were literally in the middle of committing a crime when Damage Control took Sarah. Maybe she wouldn't haven't gotten arrested if she didn't mindfuck multiple civilians?

That does not even come close to justifying what happened to her, and as far as we can tell, no one was hurt, so I don't know how serious of a crime it would really be. Definitely not anywhere near bad enough for her to be kidnapped, held without trial, experimented on, tortured and then killed.

I don't see any problems. Jean Grey was a villain in the story. Not saying she was the only one. Can't a villain be complicated?

I don't know if I'd really say she was the villain, I'd say it was Metzger and the DODC that were the real villains.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

I mean, getting overly technical about something that's morally wrong, but as far as we know, the United States in the MCU does not have a law against mind control. Fairly sure there is none in the real world.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Natasha's ticket to becoming one of the "good guys" involved the sanctioned and premeditated murder of a young girl.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Natasha's ticket to becoming one of the "good guys" involved the sanctioned and premeditated murder of a young girl.

The good guys that was merely a front for the fascist Hydra organization?

 

[Turtletrekker]

The good guys that was merely a front for the fascist Hydra organization?

Hence the quotation marks

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

A question about Jean Grey.
We’ve seen 3 different movie versions now.
Which one is the closest to the comics and cartoons?

 

[Turtletrekker]

Well, technically the Famke Janssen/Sophie Turner versions of Jean Grey are the same character, and that would be the version closer to the comics.

Unlike Sadie's Sink's Jean, Jean in the comics had supportive parents and her sister is not a mutant.

 

[Anwar]

Okay, so I finally saw this tonight.

I still don't get why it's okay for Spider-Man to interact with Yelena and have Punisher as a Co-star and then make so much of the story be about Jean instead of Peter and it's heralded as some "Great Story"...

...When Brave New World did the same with Ross and the Leader and somehow that made Sam's movie "Bad".

 

[Turtletrekker]

Well, not to put too fine of a point on it, but Brand New Day is simply a much, much better movie than Brave New World was.

 

[Anwar]

Well, not to put too fine of a point on it, but Brand New Day is simply a much, much better movie than Brave New World was.

Frankly, I found it to be too much about the other characters and not enough about Peter.