Then why would they even build a Galaxy frame? "Just engines, weapons and vital systems"... you just described a Defiant.
Sovereign-Class Starship at Chin 'Toka?
- Thread starter Admiral Archer
- Start date
Then why would they even build a Galaxy frame? "Just engines, weapons and vital systems"... you just described a Defiant.
Because Defiant is tiny and only has space for about fifty people.
Galaxy class ships could have been used as huge, fast, heavily defended troop and supply ships in addition to being kick-ass battleships.
Plus, they could comfortably mount warp engines that can actually reach and surpass warp 9.5 without blowing up.
Since they are about Excelsior-sized, and Excelsiors are commonly used as flagships, this sounds about right...
OTOH, Excelsiors aren't rare sights.
This presumes the type has special Borg-fighting abilities. The opposite appears true: Starfleet thought the E-E would be superfluous in fighting the Borg in ST:FC.
Heh, agreed - but the Defiant returned to war strength easily enough (although her damage might have been more straightforward to repair). And while Picard was getting the third degree, Thomas Halloway could have had his shot at commanding the repaired E-E in combat...
Timo Saloniemi
Since they are about Excelsior-sized, and Excelsiors are commonly used as flagships, this sounds about right...
OTOH, Excelsiors aren't rare sights.
This presumes the type has special Borg-fighting abilities. The opposite appears true: Starfleet thought the E-E would be superfluous in fighting the Borg in ST:FC.
Heh, agreed - but the Defiant returned to war strength easily enough (although her damage might have been more straightforward to repair). And while Picard was getting the third degree, Thomas Halloway could have had his shot at commanding the repaired E-E in combat...
Timo Saloniemi
We have to go deeper!
I prefer to think they used actual troop and supply ships. The Galaxy is one of the most sophisticated pieces of technology ever built and the best jack of all trades, but surely there must be simpler colony ships that can do the double duty in wartime of landing tens of thousands of troops at a time -- necessary to occupy whole planets/systems. I could see a Galaxy Class pack in 10,000+ emergency evacuees, but dedicated (larger) ships could do it more comfortably. Anyone ever do the numbers for how many people (standing room) you could cram in a Galaxy? Could be crazy. 20,000?
Diff types of ships from my Jackill Starships Appreciation thread:
Lobo Class Through Deck Carrier
Rising Star Class Starliner
Trojan Class Troop Transport
Dakota Class Heavy Shuttlecraft Carrier
That wasn't the intention, but it is extremely poorly integrated into the film so YMMV. The plot would actually have worked better if the war WAS worked into the plot, the Admiral's actions would have been more sympathetic if he had spent two years watching thousands of Starfleet personnel killed in the war.
It would have been a major change in one sense (the light, even flippant opening events would have to be all replaced by grim war vistas, and the whole mood of the movie would do a 180), a relatively minor one in another (it would be just the opening scenes that would need changing, and there's little role for "mood" in the movie as such).
OTOH, Dougherty no doubt did spend years watching people die. It's just that so, necessarily, did our main heroes. Are Admirals in so much better a position to appreciate the carnage that it would justify the difference in behavior, or is Picard really supposed to be that much colder a fish?
Timo Saloniemi
OTOH, Dougherty no doubt did spend years watching people die. It's just that so, necessarily, did our main heroes. Are Admirals in so much better a position to appreciate the carnage that it would justify the difference in behavior, or is Picard really supposed to be that much colder a fish?
Timo Saloniemi
What I'm suggesting is that the differing reactions to the discovery of the fountain of youth in the face of interstellar war would have made for a more interesting conflict than what we actually got. Possibly given how under-written this conflict was it would not have made a difference, however given that it could have been a debate between two battle-scarred officers about how the fountain of youth could heal the universe versus preserving a unique culture it could have been a great movie.
War veterans might have interesting ideas about longevity. "You know, if it weren't for all these people alive and around, we'd have fewer wars" and "What right do these millions have to be alive when my best buddy is dead?" aren't particularly rare ones ITRW.
Dougherty is an interesting villain in not having any selfish motivations in evidence. He's an old man with no apparent desire to get rejuvenated; he is a cog in the wheels of military hierarchy with no overt ambitions as regards his place in life; he's not even out to avenge anything, nor operating beyond the boundaries of law and democracy. A good guy as the main adversary should be a challenge for any hero!
Undermining Dougherty's character by making it personal for him would be to undermine the concept of insurrection in the first place. Picard isn't rebelling against Dougherty (a man he could down with a single quick phaser draw). He's declaring war on the UFP government and the Federation way of life, and would achieve nothing by directing his aggression against the dull grey Admiral.
Timo Saloniemi
Dougherty is an interesting villain in not having any selfish motivations in evidence. He's an old man with no apparent desire to get rejuvenated; he is a cog in the wheels of military hierarchy with no overt ambitions as regards his place in life; he's not even out to avenge anything, nor operating beyond the boundaries of law and democracy. A good guy as the main adversary should be a challenge for any hero!
Undermining Dougherty's character by making it personal for him would be to undermine the concept of insurrection in the first place. Picard isn't rebelling against Dougherty (a man he could down with a single quick phaser draw). He's declaring war on the UFP government and the Federation way of life, and would achieve nothing by directing his aggression against the dull grey Admiral.
Timo Saloniemi
Picard is still in the nexus.
no, deeper
The Insurrection you saw was obviously a much better movie than the one I saw. If I'd seen any of that in it, I might consider it a better film.
I think you misunderstand how I think the war as a backdrop would improve the film, Dougherty as a desperate man who has seen too much destruction and death and now sees a way of rebuilding his world with the fountain of youth IS a good guy. Possibly the best.
In the film I saw, he was just a dick, additionally Picard's motivations are dubious at best, the plot and character motivations are slim at best. Nemesis actually spent a lot longer explaining its villain, even though he turned into a zombie monster in the third act.
STAR TREK: INSURRECTION definitely occured during the Dominion War. The stardate proves it, just as dialogue in the movie proves it. The Enterprise is basically on a diplomatic tour to gain more allies and keep the general peace in other areas. When Worf overslept for his shift, Picard even says, "I don't know how it's done on DS9, but on the Enterprise we report to duty on time."
I think this movie takes place shortly before the final 10 episode arc of DS9, just before the Breen enter the war.
The only references are to "Dominion negotiations", and Ru'afo's line about the Federation having been challenged (past tense) by several baddies. Doesn't exactly sound like they're in the midst of the fighting.
Worf is still on Deep Space Nine, but there's a nice gap between Sisko's disappearance and the scene with Worf departing. Or even between the end of the Battle of Cardassia and the signing of the treaty.
The only question is exactly how long Winn and Dukat were in the Fire Caves!
Worf is still on Deep Space Nine, but there's a nice gap between Sisko's disappearance and the scene with Worf departing. Or even between the end of the Battle of Cardassia and the signing of the treaty.
The only question is exactly how long Winn and Dukat were in the Fire Caves!
The deleted scene with Quark had Picard mention to Worf that they'll take them both back to DS9. Also, DS9's season 7 does have Worf absent for a brief period. Starting with It's Only a Paper Moon, where Worf only appears briefly in the opening scene. Worf is then completely absent in Prodigal Daughter, and in The Emperor's New Cloak we only see MU Worf. Insurrection can easily be slotted in among those episodes, and it would help explain why the Son'a were weakened and in need of Dominion protection in Penumbra.
I forgot about there being no stardate. But there is more evidence of it taking place in 2375, during DS9's 7th season.
The Evora became a UFP protectorate only a year after developing warp drive, and they were present in the DS9 finale. Plus Worf being on leave from DS9, that line from Picard, and the dialogue in "PENUMBRA" strongly infers the events of this movie in the past tense, with the Son'a needing Dominion support.
Also, when Riker and Troi were studying the Son'a, they mention they make Ketracel-White for the Dominion. The Dominion were forced back into the Gamma Quadrant as part of the Treaty of Bajor... how can the Son'a develop the White for the Dominion if they are no longer a presence in the Alpha Quadrant?
The Evora became a UFP protectorate only a year after developing warp drive, and they were present in the DS9 finale. Plus Worf being on leave from DS9, that line from Picard, and the dialogue in "PENUMBRA" strongly infers the events of this movie in the past tense, with the Son'a needing Dominion support.
Also, when Riker and Troi were studying the Son'a, they mention they make Ketracel-White for the Dominion. The Dominion were forced back into the Gamma Quadrant as part of the Treaty of Bajor... how can the Son'a develop the White for the Dominion if they are no longer a presence in the Alpha Quadrant?
The Penumbra dialogue doesn't really prove anything - if Insurrection is set after the war, it makes sense the Federation would want to try to work with the Son'a. The war is over, they are no longer enemies, and they are working together in an uneasy alliance for mutual benefit.
On the other hand, if Insurrection is before Penumbra, why would Starfleet work with a current enemy? Riker says they produce (or produced?) Ketracel White. As far as we know, there can only be one customer for White. As Troi says, "why would we be involved with these people?"
Interestingly, Riker calls it a "narcotic" which opens up a possibility. Let's say they were a Dominion ally during the war. They got rich selling White to the Vorta - rich enough to fund their vast battleships, illegal weapons and atmosphere-stripping super ships. After the war, why would they still make it unless there's a new market? Perhaps it was found it has an addictive effect on other species and found a new life on the intergalactic drugs trade?
In terms of timeline, Insurrection is vague enough with all of these questions that you could argue either way where it's set. Personally I think it makes more sense just after the war, but YMMV.
On the other hand, if Insurrection is before Penumbra, why would Starfleet work with a current enemy? Riker says they produce (or produced?) Ketracel White. As far as we know, there can only be one customer for White. As Troi says, "why would we be involved with these people?"
Interestingly, Riker calls it a "narcotic" which opens up a possibility. Let's say they were a Dominion ally during the war. They got rich selling White to the Vorta - rich enough to fund their vast battleships, illegal weapons and atmosphere-stripping super ships. After the war, why would they still make it unless there's a new market? Perhaps it was found it has an addictive effect on other species and found a new life on the intergalactic drugs trade?
In terms of timeline, Insurrection is vague enough with all of these questions that you could argue either way where it's set. Personally I think it makes more sense just after the war, but YMMV.
One may wonder where the Son'a originally came from. Their exodus appears to have been a two-stage one: first, a bunch of hippies escapes from a society choking on its industrialization and starts squatting in the Briar Patch, and then a second bunch gets dissatisfied with the commune life and leaves. But where? Did Rua'fo return to the original homeworld, or did his rebel posse settle on a third world and then slowly build their pocket empire?
One might see arguments for either model. Rua'fo has command of two mighty warships, and also has constructed the vast collector vessel (nobody knew of a need for such before the adventure into the Briar Patch). Would this be possible in a second-generation colony set up by a subgroup of a subgroup?
On the other hand, if the Son'a mother culture indeed is technologically advanced (even the Ba'ku retain some of the skills), then a bunch of their hippies escaping with random stolen vehicles might well outmatch the most powerful Alpha empires. Perhaps it was their technological excellence that allowed them to become White producers where the mighty UFP failed? They could then probably easily subjugate their neighbors and construct new ships at will, too, before getting involved in the White business.
Heck, the original Son'a culture might reside in Gamma, giving the Son'a a head start here. Perhaps they are the ones producing the White and the Jem'Hadar for the Dominion back home? The hippies might not feel safe unless escaping across half a galaxy. And they could do that easily enough - they are long-lived enough to reproduce the Voyager odyssey, as evidenced by the individual Son'a surviving for more than a century after their banishment from Ba'ku.
Certainly the Son'a subjugated the Ellora and the Tarlac long before the Dominion War, apparently about half a century before.
Timo Saloniemi
One might see arguments for either model. Rua'fo has command of two mighty warships, and also has constructed the vast collector vessel (nobody knew of a need for such before the adventure into the Briar Patch). Would this be possible in a second-generation colony set up by a subgroup of a subgroup?
On the other hand, if the Son'a mother culture indeed is technologically advanced (even the Ba'ku retain some of the skills), then a bunch of their hippies escaping with random stolen vehicles might well outmatch the most powerful Alpha empires. Perhaps it was their technological excellence that allowed them to become White producers where the mighty UFP failed? They could then probably easily subjugate their neighbors and construct new ships at will, too, before getting involved in the White business.
Heck, the original Son'a culture might reside in Gamma, giving the Son'a a head start here. Perhaps they are the ones producing the White and the Jem'Hadar for the Dominion back home? The hippies might not feel safe unless escaping across half a galaxy. And they could do that easily enough - they are long-lived enough to reproduce the Voyager odyssey, as evidenced by the individual Son'a surviving for more than a century after their banishment from Ba'ku.
Certainly the Son'a subjugated the Ellora and the Tarlac long before the Dominion War, apparently about half a century before.
Timo Saloniemi
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