Something I just realized about Lieutenant Nilsson

[Styleset]

So, apparently she’s 3rd in command on Discovery, right after Captain and First Officer....
So is it good or bad, that outside of Saru and Burnham it’s not really clear the command structure of Discovery? Who’s fourth in command? I have no idea

How do you know that Nilsson is 3rd in command? Was it ever stated?

In TNG "Arsenal of Freedom it was established that Lt. JG LaForge could be given command by the Captain or First Officer and retain that even though officers of higher rank were on board (likely somewhere other than the bridge). There is no clear indication that LaForge, not yet chief engineer, was the fourth officer behind, Picard, Riker, and Data.,

Unless they have stated it, I don't think it makes sense to assume Nilsson is third in command.

 

[arch101]

I'm slightly embarrassed to say, that after three years I only just noticed that there's a bronze uniform. I just thought it was gold

Don't be- I also didn't realize there was a bronze until this post- looks silver/gold to me on my 1080p tv. Must be my old eyes...

 

[ITDUDE]

CHAINS OF COMMAND

TOS:
Captain Kirk
Commander Spock (Science Officer)
Lt. Commander Scott (Chief Engineer)
Lieutenant Sulu (Helmsman)

TNG:
Captain Picard
Commander Riker
Lt. Commander Data (Operations & Science Officer)
Lt. Commander LaForge (Chief Engineer)
Lt. Worf (Security and Tactical Officer)

DS9:
Captain Sisko
Colonel Kira (Bajoran Liaison Officer)
Lt. Commander Worf (Strategic Operations Officer & First Officer of Defiant)
Lt. Commander Dax (Science Officer)

VOY:
Captain Janeway
(Lt.?) Commander Chakotay
Lt. Commander Tuvok (Security and Tactical Officer)
Lieutenant Torres (Chief Engineer)
Lieutenant Paris (Helmsman)

ENT:
Captain Archer
Commander T'Pol (Science Officer)
Commander Tucker (Chief Engineer)
Lieutenant Reed (Security and Tactical Officer)

LOW:
Captain Freeman
Commander Ransom
Lieutenant Shaxs (Security and Tactical Officer)

DIS logical next first officers:
Commander Reno (Engineer)
Commander Nhan (Security) (Go back and get her: "We need you girl.")
A 32nd Century Officer
Lieutenant Nilsson (Spore Drive Ops) (promoted to at least Lt. CMDR)
Lieutenant Rhys (Tactical) (promoted to at least Lt. CMDR)

DIS less logical
ENSIGN Tilly (Spore Drive Assistant) (puling a Kelvin Timeline Kirk move. Please no. But, very likely)
Lt. Commander Stamets (Spore Drive navigator and creator) (just not the personality for it)
?Commander? Georgiou (deposed Emporer, Section 31 Agent, Engineer apparently) (never going to happen). She clearly doesn't see herself as apart of Starfleet.

Well, Georgiou can take over command. She just ain’t ever giving it back

 

[ITDUDE]

How do you know that Nilsson is 3rd in command? Was it ever stated?

In TNG "Arsenal of Freedom it was established that Lt. JG LaForge could be given command by the Captain or First Officer and retain that even though officers of higher rank were on board (likely somewhere other than the bridge). There is no clear indication that LaForge, not yet chief engineer, was the fourth officer behind, Picard, Riker, and Data.,

Unless they have stated it, I don't think it makes sense to assume Nilsson is third in command.

In the last episode with both Saru and Burnham off the bridge, with rest of bridge crew present, she was clearly in charge.

And that’s the part that makes no sense to me, whoever is on the bridge must in chain of command. If captain and first officer are killed, ensign Shmoe is not going to tell remaining Lt. that they can’t take orders from them because there is a higher ranking bridge officer somewhere in engineering.

 

[Styleset]

Don't be- I also didn't realize there was a bronze until this post- looks silver/gold to me on my 1080p tv. Must be my old eyes...

Yeah, these details are way too subtle.
Gold: Command
Silver: Sciences
Bronze: Operations

Even the original rankings were so hard to read on the badge. The new badge is no better.
If they placed rank epaulettes on all the 32nd century officer uniforms then we'd all be happier and have to squint less.

 

[Styleset]

In the last episode with both Saru and Burnham off the bridge, with rest of bridge crew present, she was clearly in charge.

Yes, she was, but that doesn't make her third in command. The show has never set up department heads and chain of command in any way we could understand. I'm always hoping that they will eventually do so.

It would make far more sense if that were Nhan and/or Reno.

 

[ITDUDE]

Yes, she was, but that doesn't make her third in command. The show has never set up department heads and chain of command in any way we could understand. I'm always hoping that they will eventually do so.

It would make far more sense if that were Nhan and/or Reno.

If Saru or Burnham are killed permanently (gasp!) it’s not going to be anyone from Engineering taking over permanent command. It will be highest ranking officer on the bridge.

 

[Styleset]

I.....
And that’s the part that makes no sense to me, whoever is on the bridge must in chain of command. If captain and first officer are killed, ensign Shmoe is not going to tell remaining Lt. that they can’t take orders from them because there is a higher ranking bridge officer somewhere in engineering.

I think the death of the captain and first officer is a unique circumstance and the rules would probably be laid out. There is a difference between being temporarily "given the conn" and becoming the interem commanding officer.

 

[Styleset]

If Saru or Burnham are killed permanently (gasp!) it’s not going to be anyone from Engineering taking over permanent command. It will be highest ranking officer on the bridge.

The chain of command on a Starfleet vessel would be clear and if Reno was third officer she would absolutely move to the bridge and take command of Discovery. Everything we have seen in Star Trek would tell us to expect that. The officer in temporary command under those circumstances would relinquish command.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

In the last episode with both Saru and Burnham off the bridge, with rest of bridge crew present, she was clearly in charge.

And that’s the part that makes no sense to me, whoever is on the bridge must in chain of command. If captain and first officer are killed, ensign Shmoe is not going to tell remaining Lt. that they can’t take orders from them because there is a higher ranking bridge officer somewhere in engineering.

Saru gave her the conn, so no indication NIllson is higher up the command chain than any other Lt. In 0305, Burnham gave Rhys the conn while Nillson was on the brudge.

 

[Styleset]

Saru gave her the conn, so no indication NIllson is higher up the command chain than any other Lt. In 0305, Burnham gave Rhys the conn while Nillson was on the brudge.

Exactly.

The chain of command has not been establish and I am always hoping it will be the next episode. Fingers crossed.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Janeway let Kim take the con for third shift, it didn't make him second officer.

 

[Blue Squadron]

I'm that episode yes, but that was into season 7 - my point is that we never saw Crusher as part of the command chain prior to Descent (by which point she'd clearly taken the test), but she'd been the same rank as Riker all along.

This will be one of those "just 'cos we didn't show it, doesn't mean it wasn't happening..." kinda things. You know how much they do that...

In truth, it was a bit convoluted in the episode and there was either confusion by the writers (or just sloppy writing) regarding the difference between an officer being appropriately qualified to take on the acting "command" role and the career progression of an individual officer to the substantive rank of Commander -- clearly not the same thing.

It was patently obvious that numerous more junior officers than Troi had been taking post as officer-of-the-watch/day/deck (whatever Starfleet cares to call them). Presumably, all of those had already been passed for acting command at some point along the way but Troi had, for whatever reason, progressed to Lieutenant Commander without ever having qualified for the command role. It wasn't made abundantly clear in the writing but the implication was that (as a non-Command officer) Troi was not in a position to progress beyond Lieutenant Commander without so qualifying. Obviously from a story point of view, it nicely tied back to previous events where she *wasn't* sufficiently experienced or qualified.

I agree that it's a bit dumb that they just couldn't get on and establish which characters held what role on Discovery. We didn't necessarily need to even see or meet them, but positions like chief engineering officer, chief medical officer, second and third officer all eventually come into the story at some point and, as they had clearly abandoned the whole "it's not about the captain and senior officers" concept (which later became Lower Decks), it served no purpose not to clarify this. I totally get why some folks really just don't care; that's fair enough, it's not a massive deal nor is it particularly essential to the story, but equally there's no particularly good reason for them to avoid clarifying things either.

 

[cultcross]

In truth, it was a bit convoluted in the episode and there was either confusion by the writers (or just sloppy writing) regarding the difference between an officer being appropriately qualified to take on the acting "command" role and the career progression of an individual officer to the substantive rank of Commander -- clearly not the same thing

That's true - Troi appeared to get promoted and pass the Bridge Officer test in the same episode but it was completely unclear whether the two were contingent on each other. As you point out, clearly other far more junior officers had sent holoGeordi to his death with enthusiasm before her.

 

[Styleset]

That's true - Troi appeared to get promoted and pass the Bridge Officer test in the same episode but it was completely unclear whether the two were contingent on each other. As you point out, clearly other far more junior officers had sent holoGeordi to his death with enthusiasm before her.

Troi ask Crusher why become a commander when she didn't need to be one to be CMO. Crusher said she wanted to test out the experience of command. This implies that the rank and the qualification were linked. During TOS (a hundred years earlier, the rules would have likely changed in that amount of time) McCoy was a Lt. Commander and became a Commander by TWOK.

 

[Styleset]

This will be one of those "just 'cos we didn't show it, doesn't mean it wasn't happening..." kinda things. You know how much they do that...

In truth, it was a bit convoluted in the episode and there was either confusion by the writers (or just sloppy writing) regarding the difference between an officer being appropriately qualified to take on the acting "command" role and the career progression of an individual officer to the substantive rank of Commander -- clearly not the same thing.

It was patently obvious that numerous more junior officers than Troi had been taking post as officer-of-the-watch/day/deck (whatever Starfleet cares to call them). Presumably, all of those had already been passed for acting command at some point along the way but Troi had, for whatever reason, progressed to Lieutenant Commander without ever having qualified for the command role. It wasn't made abundantly clear in the writing but the implication was that (as a non-Command officer) Troi was not in a position to progress beyond Lieutenant Commander without so qualifying. Obviously from a story point of view, it nicely tied back to previous events where she *wasn't* sufficiently experienced or qualified.

I agree that it's a bit dumb that they just couldn't get on and establish which characters held what role on Discovery. We didn't necessarily need to even see or meet them, but positions like chief engineering officer, chief medical officer, second and third officer all eventually come into the story at some point and, as they had clearly abandoned the whole "it's not about the captain and senior officers" concept (which later became Lower Decks), it served no purpose not to clarify this. I totally get why some folks really just don't care; that's fair enough, it's not a massive deal nor is it particularly essential to the story, but equally there's no particularly good reason for them to avoid clarifying things either.

I agree with most everything you said. I do think Troi being a Lt. Commander makes sense. She was a high level advisor to the captain assisting him with diplomacy, interrogation, and personal counseling. She could say things to him that most could not. Later she relived Barclay of duty for concerns about his mental health. She reviewed crew personnel and promotions with Riker.

Troi and Crusher were both line-officers, not in the command track, even though apparently since the beginning Crusher had already qualified for command. Ron Moore talked about wanting to do new things with Troi: Disaster, Face of the Enemy, Chain of Command, and Thine Own Self.

 

[Blue Squadron]

Troi ask Crusher why become a commander when she didn't need to be one to be CMO. Crusher said she wanted to test out the experience of command. This implies that the rank and the qualification were linked. During TOS (a hundred years earlier, the rules would have likely changed in that amount of time) McCoy was a Lt. Commander and became a Commander by TWOK.

It's been a while since I watched "Thine Own Self" but my abiding impression was that Lieutenant Commander was a kind of ceiling of progression for NON-Command officers, without being passed for acting command duties.

In other words, officers of ANY department *could* take the bridge command qualification (and presumably it would be mandatory at a relatively early stage for Command officers and some other roles), but for NON-command officers, it would be possible to progress up to Lieutenant Commander (an appropriate grade to be department head within their own specialty, where applicable) without being passed to formally stand a watch on the bridge. To progress beyond this, however, all officers must be bridge certified.

Now, I also had a feeling when I watched the episode that the writers had somewhat conflated the ROLE of command, with the substantive RANK of Commander and that they had somehow mixed up qualifying for bridge command to mean qualifying for the rank of Commander. It's no big deal but, as I have suggested on several occasions, I really do feel that it is an error to try to directly equate Starfleet in 300 years' time with the US Navy in the present -- they really, really do NOT (and indeed SHOULD not) need to be the same. To that extent, our contemporary concepts of "Line" and "Staff" officers are not necessarily relevant to Starfleet -- and I think resources like Memory Alpha are not correct in using those terms as they currently apply in the USN. The bottom line is that it's a TV show so the writers can change things at will anyway if it suits their need for the story of any given episode.

I very much dislike the need to do any kind of "head cannon" to explain things in the show that don't quite make sense but I don't think the explanation above is either wildly convoluted or too way-out and it pretty much fits with the episode.

(Oh, and yes, I'm aware that Ron D Moore was in the Naval ROTC)

 

[The Wormhole]

VOY:
Captain Janeway
(Lt.?) Commander Chakotay
Lt. Commander Tuvok (Security and Tactical Officer)
Lieutenant Torres (Chief Engineer)
Lieutenant Paris (Helmsman)

Paris outranked Torres, as established in Displaced. Granted, Torres outranked him after Thirty Days when he was demoted to Ensign. Things get fuzzy when Paris is re-promoted in Unimatrix Zero, technically Torres has seniority in rank, but Paris is still command division.

LOW:
Captain Freeman
Commander Ransom
Lieutenant Shaxs (Security and Tactical Officer)

Chief Engineer Lt. Commander Billups is next after Ransom.

To that extent, our contemporary concepts of "Line" and "Staff" officers are not necessarily relevant to Starfleet -- and I think resources like Memory Alpha are not correct in using those terms as they currently apply in the USN.

Memory Alpha is basing that on the fact that those terms were used in TOS exactly like they are in the USN.

 

[Timo]

It's been a while since I watched "Thine Own Self" but my abiding impression was that Lieutenant Commander was a kind of ceiling of progression for NON-Command officers, without being passed for acting command duties.

I'm not sure why this conclusion should be drawn. Pulaski and McCoy are examples of full Commanders who were clear and vocal about not being bridge officers or in the line of command.

So, about Nilsson... She's apparently no longer wearing silver in the promo for "Unification III". I can't really tell bronze and gold apart there, but the promo pics suggest she's wearing the exact same shade as Rhys at least, and apparently the same as Owosekun, Bryce and Detmer. Is Nilsson the new XO, then? Or was she demoted from spore engineering to regular engineering and now has to bow to Reno?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[cultcross]

In other words, officers of ANY department *could* take the bridge command qualification (and presumably it would be mandatory at a relatively early stage for Command officers and some other roles), but for NON-command officers, it would be possible to progress up to Lieutenant Commander (an appropriate grade to be department head within their own specialty, where applicable) without being passed to formally stand a watch on the bridge. To progress beyond this, however, all officers must be bridge certified

Seems a reasonable explanation to me.