So What Are you Reading?: Generations

[Christopher]

Several years ago when I got Thrawn signed by Zahn at Farpoint, when I handed him the book he asked me what I thought. I think Zahn expected an, "Oh, I liked it, it was good." Instead, I said, "I didn't expect a Sherlock Holmes novel, and I felt really dumb because I missed the obvious clue." Zahn stood up, handed me the book, looked me in the eye, and we had a conversation for two minutes about Thrawn as a Holmes (or Moriarty) figure, the obvious clue I missed (Nightswan/Cygnus), and translating the language of the GFFA into English. He held up the line for this conversation.

Thrawn works as a protagonist, imho, because he sees himself and acts as the hero in his story. He's not evil, I'm not even sure he counts as anti-heroic. In his mind, he wants to make the galaxy a better place for his people, and he judges the Empire to be the best route to achieve that. I think that always made him a compelling antagonist for the New Republic. I hesitate to use the word "villain" for Thrawn; he would disagree with the appellation entirely.

The difference between Thrawn and Holmes, though, is that Holmes's author allowed him to be fallible. For all that he seemed to be five steps ahead of everyone else, there were plenty of times when he realized what a fool he'd been for missing something critical. The issue for me was not that Thrawn saw himself as the hero -- it's that Zahn failed to give him any challenges that would test his heroism, because Thrawn already had every problem solved before you even started the chapter and it was just a case of watching his strategem unfold exactly as he'd foreseen it.

Heroes are defined by the quality of their enemies. The more the hero is outclassed by the villain, the more impressive their victory is -- which is why George Lucas pitted a farmboy and a space trucker against the concentrated military force of a galactic tyranny. But nobody outclassed Thrawn in the new-canon novels. He never faced a real challenge, he was never at any risk of failing, and he had nothing he needed to learn along the way. So the story just wasn't interesting. It was just watching him coast through life.

 

[Steve Roby]

And this also led me to the book The Conspiracy Against the Human Race.

I’ve read some of Ligotti’s fiction, but nihilistic philosophical nonfiction doesn’t hold a lot of appeal for me.

This is also interesting:

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Huh. I read Thinner in 1985, I think, so I must have picked up on that at the time. IIRC I read The King in Yellow around 1981-82.

 

[bdub76]

I’ve read some of Ligotti’s fiction, but nihilistic philosophical nonfiction doesn’t hold a lot of appeal for me.

It's supposed to tie into True Detective. But it's not on my radar this year. Maybe next year.

I'll probably read some short stories by Ambrose Bierce too. I grabbed his collection: Can Such Things Be?

And the significant other recommended The Dry, so I'll read that at some point soon.

 

[Steve Roby]

I bought a book, Time is a Flat Circle: Examining True Detective, Season One by Melissa Milazzo, in 2019 and haven't read it yet. By now it might be a good idea for me to rewatch the show before reading it.

 

[bdub76]

I bought a book, Time is a Flat Circle: Examining True Detective, Season One by Melissa Milazzo, in 2019 and haven't read it yet. By now it might be a good idea for me to rewatch the show before reading it.

I'm half way through the King in Yellow, so I'm going to start a watch of the 4th season. It's been long enough since I watched the first to rewatch it. But I want to read more HPL and Ambrose Bierce too.

And I stumbled upon this.

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I didn't realize the RPG writer Kenneth Hite annotated the King in Yellow. I'm not willing to spend $30 on a public domain book, where I have no idea as to the quality of the annotations. I'm reading the Oxford Press version of Uncles Silas, and the annotations have been hit or miss. And they're typically good.

If I find the annotated version for a good price in a used book store, I might grab it.

 

[bdub76]

The difference between Thrawn and Holmes, though, is that Holmes's author allowed him to be fallible. For all that he seemed to be five steps ahead of everyone else, there were plenty of times when he realized what a fool he'd been for missing something critical. The issue for me was not that Thrawn saw himself as the hero -- it's that Zahn failed to give him any challenges that would test his heroism, because Thrawn already had every problem solved before you even started the chapter and it was just a case of watching his strategem unfold exactly as he'd foreseen it.

Heroes are defined by the quality of their enemies. The more the hero is outclassed by the villain, the more impressive their victory is -- which is why George Lucas pitted a farmboy and a space trucker against the concentrated military force of a galactic tyranny. But nobody outclassed Thrawn in the new-canon novels. He never faced a real challenge, he was never at any risk of failing, and he had nothing he needed to learn along the way. So the story just wasn't interesting. It was just watching him coast through life.

Holmes will also let criminals go if he sees the act as morally right. That's what happens in: The Adventure of the Abbey Grange.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

And sometimes, what appears to have been murder-by-torture turns out to have been the work of a dumb animal. (The Adventure of the Lion's Mane)

 

[Stevil2001]

I mean, I suppose it's theoretically possible to write a novel where the protagonist never encounters any serious reverses or setbacks, and is more than a match for whatever challenge is thrown at them, but why would you want to?

Judging by the success of Legends & Lattes, it would be quite popular.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

I wouldn't say that Viv and Tandri never encounter any serious reverses or setbacks. I may be mistaken, but I have this vague recollection that somebody's place of business burns to the ground in one of the books.

 

[Greg Cox]

I wouldn't say that Viv and Tandri never encounter any serious reverses or setbacks. I may be mistaken, but I have this vague recollection that somebody's place of business burns to the ground in one of the books.

Bingo. There are plenty of challenges and obstacles and setbacks in those books; it's just that the stakes are much smaller and more personal. Trying to start a new business -- and keep it going. Making friends, making up with friends after a falling-out, trying to figure what you want to do with your life, romantic tribulations and misunderstandings, etc.

As opposed to saving the Realm from the Dark Lord or whatever.

What makes them "cozy" is not that everything always goes right for the protagonists, but that the fate of the kingdom is not at stake, and that, yes, much of the "action" plays out in coffee shops, bookstores, bakeries, and so.

Imagine a book about the small-town trials and tribulations of the hobbits who stayed home and didn't embark on an epic quest to save all of the Middle-Earth. Doesn't mean they don't have challenges and difficulties, just "cozy" difficulties.

(And, yes, a shop does burn down in one of Baldree books, forcing the characters to rally and rebuild, despite the odds against them.)

 

[Kount Korbula]

sequel to previous, *Lasertown Blues*

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

The stakes in my novel range from whether my protagonist gets a practice instrument she can stand to hear herself play, to whether she gets an opportunity to build the project that's her preferred doctoral dissertation subject, to whether she survives a run-in with a drunk driver, and does so with her chops intact. And everything in between.

And the challenges and difficulties in 18 Tiny Deaths are all too real, and happen whenver Frances Glessner Lee encounters a problem that can't be solved by throwing money at it.

 

[Denise]

One African American author who has been influenced by Lovecraft is Victor LaValle. His works are interesting in that they often involve confronting racism or racists. I recommend all his books. I believe The Devil in Silver is coming to streaming.

 

[Steve Roby]

I’ve read his novella The Ballad of Black Tom, which I remember liking.

Just finished Outlaw: Waylon, Willie, Kris, and the Renegades of Nashville, about, unsurprisingly, Waylon Jennings, Willie Nelson, and Kris Kristofferson, and how the outlaw tag helped their rise but became irrelevant fairly quickly. The book focuses mostly on the 1970s and how a few musicians decided not to follow the usual Nashville rules around whose songs you record, who produces your album, who plays on your album, etc. You won’t find much about how their careers progressed after that time, or any discussion of what outlaw country might mean today or of more recent musicians who get tagged with that name. It’s a snapshot of a moment more than an exploration of a subgenre/marketing tag.

 

[bdub76]

One African American author who has been influenced by Lovecraft is Victor LaValle. His works are interesting in that they often involve confronting racism or racists. I recommend all his books. I believe The Devil in Silver is coming to streaming.

I watched Devil in Silver. It was part of The Terror show. It's good.

The Terror (TV series) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

However, I didn't like his Changeling series over on AppleTV.

The Changeling (TV series) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I haven't read either of these books, so maybe the Changeling book is better than the series.

 

[Desert Kris]

I finished the old TOS numbered novel The Pandora Principle a couple weeks ago, and have been mulling it over. I've had an impression from other readers who reviewed it that it tends to be viewed as an uneven novel, with a strong start but some irreverence and silliness after the first chapter. I felt like it took itself seriously though. Even characters who act in maybe a silly way, I ended up feeling that their flaws and weaknesses made them more sympathetic and tragic when the major threat of the novel is unleashed in Starfleet headquarters and a civilian city.

It seemed to me an effective exploration of the character of Saavik, particularly as depicted in Vonda McIntyre's novelizations. The guest characters, Bobby Harper and Obo I quite liked. I felt sad for Bobby's guilt because of how events unfold, and Obo brought a nice little bit of levity to it. The Romulan guest, Achernar, I found compelling and likable.

The Pandora Principle gave me strong nostalgia vibes for TWoK and TSFS films, especially TSFS with it's sequences in spacedock, the Enterprise leaving late in the story to go on an off-the-books mission, and the Enterprise self-destruct sequence coming into play.

Throughout my reading of it I encountered three points of synergy. I was reading Hesiod's Theogony on the side, which recounts a version of the Pandora's box story, except that Pandora is not named in the work. It was pretty neat to have that come up in the Greek literature, right before The Pandora Principle's passage discussion the legend of Pandora and her box.

Then the return of the first four Star Trek movies in the theater sync up; I chose to watch TWoK and TSFS in the theaters partly because I was reading The Pandora Principle. When I went to watch those movies it was about the time Saavik was finding the deeper answers to what she had forgotten had happened on Hellguard. Sadly, though, while watching TWoK and TSFS, I didn't really feel the more fleshed out backstory of the book connecting strongly with the movies while watching them, both Kirsty Alley and Robin Curtis's versions didn't make me think of the book (I was more preoccupied with what the soundmix felt like, and how the ship exterior sequences felt more fluid on the big screen while watching the movies).

The final sychronicity happened at the end, there was a nice quiet moment when I was reading the book with a mild rainstorm happening outside, while Admiral Kirk recovers in the hospital and reads the borrow Treasure Island book while it's raining outside the hospital. It was a cozy ending to a book that dealt with serious trauma and cruel mistreatment, and the larger scale starfleet movements that made me think of Cold War-era Tom Clancy.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

I have no recollection of The Pandora Principle at all. Maybe I'll re-read it sometime soon.

I will note that my favorite version of the Pandora myth would have to be the one from Joan Gerber's syndicated comedy radio show, The Story Lady. In that version, Pandora opens her box, and what do you think she finds? "A whole bunch of funny-looking cigarettes with no brand names on them."

 

[Denise]

I watched Devil in Silver. It was part of The Terror show. It's good.

The Terror (TV series) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

However, I didn't like his Changeling series over on AppleTV.

The Changeling (TV series) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I haven't read either of these books, so maybe the Changeling book is better than the series.

I haven't seen either show. Just read the books.

 

[JD]

I made it through Mirror Eyes in Tales of The Dominion War, and since I'm going in chronological order, I'm stopping there for now until I read The Battle of Betazed. But before I read that, I decided to take a short break from Star Trek, and right now I'm read the digital version of Doctor Who: The Eleventh Doctor Archives, Titan's reprint of the first 10 stories from IDW's Eleventh Doctor series. I finished the first one shot story, Spam Filtered, which pretty fun. I'm now on the second story, a Jack the Ripper story called The Ripper Curse. I have to admit, I was a little iffy on the art when I was flipping through the book when I first borrowed it, but now that I'm reading it and taking my time it, I don't mind it as much.

 

[Steve Roby]

Just finished Network Effect, one of the Murderbot books by Martha Wells. Based on the previous books I knew I'd enjoy this, and there are three I haven't read currently available. I may binge them.

Anyone who's reading this discussion likes books and at least some science fiction, so if you haven't read any of the books or watched the Apple TV series, give them a try. They're fun science fiction stories about a SecUnit cyborg who manages to become independent and has adventures while wishing it could just watch its favourite shows like The Rise and Fall of Sanctuary Moon, a space opera/soap opera with hundreds of episodes. If it isn't obvious, the series is less dark than the cyborg's ironic choice of name, Murderbot, might suggest. It's definitely not as cozy as a series about Data learning how to relate to humans and deal with emotional reactions would be, there is some violence, but the character work is great. The TV series is good, too.