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So have things really changed

I do find, however, that a lot of characters seem to be a little bit on the nose as far as the message they're trying to send goes. Black Lightning, Black Panther, Ms. Marvel and so on. Look at me! I'm a superhero! And I'm BLACK!

How exactly did this turn into a white vs black thing? These threads always go that route.

Anyway, I think too many people think that just because they don't act like Nazis or KKK then they are not racists. I am sorry but when you say things like the above then you have explaining to do. If a character is reflecting their culture and their behavior then how exactly is that any different than any other character doing the same thing? This seems to be saying as long as they don't act different than I do then their skin can be a different color or their voice can sound different or they can have a different religion otherwise don't want to see them.
 
I do find, however, that a lot of characters seem to be a little bit on the nose as far as the message they're trying to send goes. Black Lightning, Black Panther, Ms. Marvel and so on. Look at me! I'm a superhero! And I'm BLACK!

How exactly did this turn into a white vs black thing? These threads always go that route.

Anyway, I think too many people think that just because they don't act like Nazis or KKK then they are not racists. I am sorry but when you say things like the above then you have explaining to do. If a character is reflecting their culture and their behavior then how exactly is that any different than any other character doing the same thing? This seems to be saying as long as they don't act different than I do then their skin can be a different color or their voice can sound different or they can have a different religion otherwise don't want to see them.

Have a look at the cover of the first issue of Ms. Marvel.

It screams "Look at me! I'm a superhero AND a woman!"

I think this does the character a disservice. Why can't she just be a superhero who happens to be a woman ? Her defining characteristic should not be that she's a woman.

And the same goes with Black Panther. His defining characteristic should not be that he's black. Black Panther is the king of his own country and one of the most respected people in the entire Marvel universe.

What I'm getting at is that by making them all about being a woman or being black or gay or whatever you're making them out to be abnormal, a curiosity. By extension, you then make being black abnormal when it isn't. You will get what you want when nobody bats an eyelid when they see a black superhero in a movie or in a comic book because it's nothing new, because nobody gives it a second thought.

Anyone who has been on this board for a while will know that Ms. Marvel is second only to Spider-Man to me. That's nothing to do with her being a woman, I just love the character. I loved seeing her lead the Avengers, hers is the first book I read when I get my comics that week and I very nearly showed up to work with a black armband on when she died. What I'm saying here is don't enjoy a character of their skin colour, gender or whatever, enjoy them because of their character.
 
Lots of taking out of context, insinuations and outright fabrications.
I find it offensive you take my comments and compare me to a racist like Strom Thurmond or a wind bag like Rush Limbaugh. Would you like me to call you a racist like Jesse Jackson, or Al Sharpton? I'm sure you wouldn't like to be compared to two of the most bigoted black men in America but that's what you just did to me.

Let's surmise: You're white, you're racist. That's the argument I've seen time and again. No one dares out-right say it but that's the implication.
I have never said such a thing. I have never believed such a thing. I will say, however, that I am concerned about the assumptions you've jumped to, that this should be a conflict divided along racial lines, and in trying to paint yourself as a victim of some kind of reverse discrimination and other such trite regurgitations.
You can make all the claims, accusations and denials you want, but you sure can't keep them staight, can you? As we can see from Hermiod's response, you most certainly can't keep the "facts" straight.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
Most definitely fictious I'd say.

You are so full of self righteousness you can't even see how you're acting yourself. Not that this makes much difference but I read an interesting story on racism, stereotypes and prejudices from African Americans today. It's quite telling, though no doubt I'll see a litany of refutes like the previous one to try to cover up your own prejudice nature.

Take a read, I'm sure you can find some way to turn around and make this about how I'm some KKK white-power worshipper or something, like you tried with your previous post.

I find this the most telling part of the article though:

In Athens, Ezeamuzie found his ideals at odds with those who shared his skin color at Clarke Central High School, his first stint in a public school.

On his first day, he donned khakis, a button-down dress shirt and nice leather shoes. He caught the African-Americans' attention upon stepping into the cafeteria, he said.

"They give me the look," he said. "Why is this guy dressed like the white folks, like the preppy guys?"

Ezeamuzie didn't understand why so few black students were in his advanced-placement classes. He didn't understand the de facto lunchroom segregation or the accusing glances he got for eating with white classmates. One classmate called him a traitor and asked, "Do you not like black people?"

[...]

Ezeamuzie recalled finding himself more confused by his experience with some African-Americans: Why were they so cliquish? Why did they mock students for being intelligent? Why were they homophobic and bent on using the n-word? Why did every conversation seem to involve drugs, girls or materialism?

"They kind of accepted me. They saw me a little differently, but I was thinking this is a very narrow mindset," Ezeamuzie said.

Ezeamuzie and other Africans say they feel African-Americans too often dwell on slavery and the racism that has persisted for more than a century since the Emancipation Proclamation.
For those slow on the uptake, these black students were about as racist as you can get-- against a fellow black student who was African. They were so ingrained against being "white" that when they saw a black student who acted that way, they had to challenge it. This is to point out that far from it being the one way direction some members imply, it's quite obviously not forced or imposed by white racists alone.

What else is left to say? All the talk of racism, and we have it against our own skin color. Trent Roman claims to be a heterophile liking diversity yet when challenged to his views, his first reaction is to declare it racism, make a rather nasty comparison to a well known racist and then try to paint the offender as someone to disregard. I don't think there's more for me to add, although I have no doubt there will be lengthy, nit-picking reply to counter every point made and to make it something it's not, like it always is when the argument that's so clearly thought out turns out not to be so simple and well defined.
 
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I find it offensive you take my comments and compare me to a racist like Strom Thurmond or a wind bag like Rush Limbaugh.

If you don't want to be compared to such individuals, perhaps you shouldn't use their crib notes in your rants.

Would you like me to call you a racist like Jesse Jackson, or Al Sharpton? I'm sure you wouldn't like to be compared to two of the most bigoted black men in America but that's what you just did to me.

Not really familiar with them, nor do I quite see what the link is supposed to be. You weren't ranting like, say, Louis Farrakhan might rant, therefore I didn't compare you to him. Seems to me you're still trying to turn this into an "Us vs. Them" paradigm; countering one instance of discrimination with another as though the two cancel out instead of merely stacking the unfortunate prejudices displayed.

You can make all the claims, accusations and denials you want, but you sure can't keep them staight, can you? As we can see from Hermiod's response, you most certainly can't keep the "facts" straight.

There is no contradiction. Hermiod accused me of violating board rules, which calling another poster a racist would entail. I pointed out that I had followed the maxim of attacking the post, not the poster.

I'm sure you can find some way to turn around and make this about how I'm some KKK white-power worshipper or something, like you tried with your previous post.

Awesome. That's the funniest thing I've read since "I'm sure the media will try to villify my rambling, incoherent speech as rambling and incoherent."

For those slow on the uptake, these black students were about as racist as you can get-- against a fellow black student who was African. They were so ingrained against being "white" that when they saw a black student who acted that way, they had to challenge it. This is to point out that far from it being the one way direction some members imply, it's quite obviously not forced or imposed by white racists alone.

OH MY GOD! Seriously? Next you'll be telling me that ethnic violence can occur within the Western-concepted 'races' as well as between them! How utterly shocking to anybody who lacks any basic knowledge of sociology, human nature or simple observation.

Yet, I'm confused as to why this is even here since it has nothing to do with the topic, to wit, the lack of diversity in superheroes and what methods can be used to remedy the situation. Particularly since you seem to be arguing against a claim that no one but yourself has put forward, that this is an attack on white people or that minorities cannot be hold prejudices of their own. I have to ask myself what's the point of all this shadowboxing, why you feel compelled to go as far as to post lengthy excerpts on how some black people can be discriminatory? Oh, but I'm sure your motivations are as pure as the driven snow.

Trent Roman claims to be a heterophile liking diversity yet when challenged to his views, his first reaction is to declare it racism, make a rather nasty comparison to a well known racist and then try to paint the offender as someone to disregard.

Another right-wing fallacy: the notion that inclusivism as an outlook must include everything or somehow be seen as a failure. Absurd and impossible, the (deliberate or otherwise) attempt to re-engineer a term into something it is not by those who think in absolutes. Inclusivism cannot include exclusivist outlooks.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
Non-White people begging for whites to give them a piece of the pie that white people created without any non-white help? Say it ain't so! If you need your minority superheroes, go fucking make your own. Nobody is stopping you. We don't want a white Roruni Kenshin or a blonde Ororo Monroe. Why do you want to take ours?
 
Non-White people begging for whites to give them a piece of the pie that white people created without any non-white help? Say it ain't so! If you need your minority superheroes, go fucking make your own. Nobody is stopping you. We don't want a white Roruni Kenshin or a blonde Ororo Monroe. Why do you want to take ours?

Are you for real? You do realize that these characters were created at a time when non-white help would likely not have been accepted, and non-white heroes would not have been allowed. To draw a Star Trek: Deep Space Nine reference, when all of the white writers beg Benny Russell to "be sick" when their photographs are taken because they don't want to reveal to the public that he is non-white in Far Beyond the Stars, that's not a social attitude that was invented for an episode of Star Trek.

Second, you're accusing non-whites of cultural appropriation while implying that whites never did any of their own? You do realize the racial origins of jazz and rock and roll, yes?
 
Non-White people begging for whites to give them a piece of the pie that white people created without any non-white help? Say it ain't so! If you need your minority superheroes, go fucking make your own. Nobody is stopping you. We don't want a white Roruni Kenshin or a blonde Ororo Monroe. Why do you want to take ours?

So it is an US VS THEM issue. I will simply say that I am confident that Roruni Kenshin would be cast with a white actor. Ororo does have white hair/heard it called blonde by some. Was created that way. Since you know who Roruni is I am sure you know who Goku is? Notice the actor that played him?

But I thank you for providing the clearest answer to my question.
 
What if a white guy (or girl) were cast as the title character in a new Blade Movie, how would everyone feel about that?
 
What if a white guy (or girl) were cast as the title character in a new Blade Movie, how would everyone feel about that?
SpikeTV practically did that with Blade-erm, Krista: The Series, featuring some dude named Blade as a background character...:rolleyes:
 
Non-White people begging for whites to give them a piece of the pie that white people created without any non-white help? Say it ain't so! If you need your minority superheroes, go fucking make your own. Nobody is stopping you. We don't want a white Roruni Kenshin or a blonde Ororo Monroe. Why do you want to take ours?

So it is an US VS THEM issue. I will simply say that I am confident that Roruni Kenshin would be cast with a white actor. Ororo does have white hair/heard it called blonde by some. Was created that way. Since you know who Roruni is I am sure you know who Goku is? Notice the actor that played him?

But I thank you for providing the clearest answer to my question.

Actually, I do want a (platinum) blonde Ororo T'Challa (neé Munroe), thanks.

However, it's not an "Us vs. Them" thing for me at all. I don't know who the characters Roruni Kenshin or Goku are. I'm guessing they're not white, and if so they shouldn't be cast with white actors.
 
Actually, I do want a (platinum) blonde Ororo T'Challa (neé Munroe), thanks.

Wow. Stirred up something of a hornets nest here. (A green hornets nest? heh)

There's been some really well put and well thought out comments in this thread. Hermiod, you're an intelligent well reasoned chap, I'm right with you on pretty much everything you say. Teelie, you also seem to be thinking along the same lines as me. :techman:

This isnt about swapping black for white or white for asian or male for female. It's about swapping the character for someone we dont know. When Christian Bale gets up on screen, he's Bruce Wayne/Batman. He's not a re-invention of Batman. Although I have to say I wasnt that impressed with the new version of Ra's al Ghul,as much as I like Liam neeson. I prefer the version we have in the comics.

I'd f*cking LOVE a Luke Cage film, I'd love a Blue Beetle film with Jamie Reyes, I'd even love to see a Black Panther film although I dont find the character that interesting. And as actors go, I want someone who I can see as Jamie, someone with his look and who can pull off the character and his life. Same with Luke. I dont expect Ryan Reynolds to be starring as Luke Cage. Thats just insulting, stupid and wrong.

What I'm saying is - these characters are icons. Like Mickey Mouse (who's Black AND White - the perfect Mouse ;) ).

You dont mess with Icons. You dont attempt to pro-actively "fix" or diversify their appeal by changing what makes them, them. They dont need it, they've been around for decades.

Trent, Im not sure what kind of hidden agenda you want to bring to the forum, not sure what kind of unhappy life you've led, and dont know what your background is colour or otherwise. And to be honest I dont care. You just dont seem very open minded, seem quite erratic in your facts and accusations and you seem quite disrespectful of other posters who may not carry your opinions as theirs. You're also very aware of toe-ing the line between warnings and just being a little hostile. I dont think its needed really. I'm sure we can all discuss this sensibly.
 
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Actually, I do want a (platinum) blonde Ororo T'Challa (neé Munroe), thanks.

Wow. Stirred up something of a hornets nest here. (A green hornets nest? heh)

There's been some really well put and well thought out comments in this thread. Hermiod, you're an intelligent well reasoned chap, I'm right with you on pretty much everything you say. Teelie, you also seem to be thinking along the same lines as me. :techman:

Careful, agreeing with me usually gets people permabanned. :lol:

As for my comment about Ororo, her hair actually is platinum blonde (to the point of almost being white) so that's how I want to see her.
 
I might have to go back and re-read the thread, but the minor point has become the major point. The major point I was trying to make was that the studios dodge making superhero movies that star non-white, non male characters. It was not about changing the race of a character.

You guys keep missing the real world what has happened points. Green Lantern could have easily been John Stewart. He is an established character that a large part of the audience will know as Green Lantern. How does a Green Lantern movie get made before a Wonder Woman movie?

Hollywood has repeatedly made movies where the original character was not white then changed them for the movie. Lastest real world examples are Dragonball and Avatar:The Last Air Bender. If you look in that thread you will see most people have absolutely no problem with it what so ever and that is the part that is the problem for me. And then we have the weak argument of what if they made Blade white. I am sure plenty of people wouldn't even care.

As someone said these are fictional characters. Stories have been and will continue to be rewritten by different writers with a different twist. Are you saying that they are to be bound for all time by whatever the creators came up with at that time. What if the creator or their heirs were ok with the changes made. What would you say then?

I actually would prefer a Steel movie to a Luke Cage movie. Cage is too full of sterotypes and he has the always found in sci fi white wife. I actually want to see someone that is different like Sisko and less like Geordio.
 
I was right; you took everything you could not find a way to remove context from and ignored it, took the rest, altered the context and turned it into another of your "you're a racist" rants. Thanks for proving my point. Though no doubt you convinced yourself already how sure your arguments are so why keep fighting them?

Whites = racist. The summation of your argument will stand uncontested, at least in your mind, regardless of your public claims to the contrary that it is not what you think.
 
To get more U.S. minority or female superhero movies made, it will take some people with a strong artistic vision and financing to make some entries in the genre that are actually great films. When people think of female superhero movies, the ones that readily come to mind are Catwoman, Elektra, and Supergirl, none of which are particularly high quality movies. There really aren't too many nonwhite superhero movies in the public view other than the Blade films. The public can't be bothered to get involved in most of the important issues, so the support for more diverse superheroes will have to come from the production side.
 
I might have to go back and re-read the thread, but the minor point has become the major point. The major point I was trying to make was that the studios dodge making superhero movies that star non-white, non male characters. It was not about changing the race of a character.

You guys keep missing the real world what has happened points. Green Lantern could have easily been John Stewart. He is an established character that a large part of the audience will know as Green Lantern. How does a Green Lantern movie get made before a Wonder Woman movie?

Hollywood has repeatedly made movies where the original character was not white then changed them for the movie. Lastest real world examples are Dragonball and Avatar:The Last Air Bender. If you look in that thread you will see most people have absolutely no problem with it what so ever and that is the part that is the problem for me. And then we have the weak argument of what if they made Blade white. I am sure plenty of people wouldn't even care.

As someone said these are fictional characters. Stories have been and will continue to be rewritten by different writers with a different twist. Are you saying that they are to be bound for all time by whatever the creators came up with at that time. What if the creator or their heirs were ok with the changes made. What would you say then?

I actually would prefer a Steel movie to a Luke Cage movie. Cage is too full of sterotypes and he has the always found in sci fi white wife. I actually want to see someone that is different like Sisko and less like Geordio.

I defy you to find a more interesting character than Jessica Jones. She's nobody's "always found in sci fi white wife". She's a great character in her own right that could easily hold up a good movie on her own.
 
Teelie
I am sorry when did I say that whites=racist. Facts are facts. You are not actually reading or understanding what I am saying.

Hermiod
It doesn't matter if she is an interesting character or not, the fact is that she is white. I am sorry but I didn't live in a fantasy world where I can just pay intention to the story and not notice those type of things. If you look around at sci-fi you well rarely see main characters for are non-white in a relationship with someone non-white. It is almost like it is a written rule. If it was common place the other way then I might focus on just the story but it is not.

Smiley

I am sure you are right but is that really the suits fault or is it the public. It is definitely a Catch 22. Even if they started making a lot of superhero movies with minority characters I can see the same people saying it is just a fad that is in at the moment instead of looking at the quality of the film
 
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