So have things really changed

[Hermiod]

Hermiod
It doesn't matter if she is an interesting character or not, the fact is that she is white. I am sorry but I didn't live in a fantasy world where I can just pay intention to the story and not notice those type of things. If you look around at sci-fi you well rarely see main characters for are non-white in a relationship with someone non-white. It is almost like it is a written rule. If it was common place the other way then I might focus on just the story but it is not.

Then you have a problem with her being white and you are, by definition, racist.

 

[Teelie]

If only that were true. But a black man dating anyone but a black woman, let alone marrying outside his race is a big no-no.

See, I can learn.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Its not broke. Stop trying to fix it.

So you don't think it is broke? I am glad that everyone does not share your point of view. It most certainly is broke because all of these characters are essentially a bunch of white guys running around. Even when the characters are suppose to be a different race, they still make them white. I didn't see you make any complaints about that. For the most part they were all created when the world was a lot different and being a racist bigot was ok and the norm. So to say they are not broke is just not correct.

Please, spare us the hystrionics...

I don't know why these discussions always break down to black and white. I personally never go that route. I want to see people from all cultures shown in the movies and I think that if you make a good movie with the same effort that is put into other movies people will go see it.

Because hypersensitive people TAKE them down that road by insisting that black people can only have black heroes, etc.

I am not saying progress has not been made, but we still have a long way to go.

Yes, we do, until people get it through their heads that heroes are heroes for EVERYBODY, not just for the ethnic group they belong to.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

50 year old characters are who they are and no misguided political correctness is going to change that.

Oh noes! PC-ness! I don't buy into right-wing fictions like creationism and political correctness. How about you come back with a level of argument somewhere above that of Helen Lovejoy.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

Why don't you? And stop demanding we pander to "ethnic group du jour" while you're at it.

 

[Trent Roman]

It doesn't matter if she is an interesting character or not, the fact is that she is white. I am sorry but I didn't live in a fantasy world where I can just pay intention to the story and not notice those type of things. If you look around at sci-fi you well rarely see main characters for are non-white in a relationship with someone non-white. It is almost like it is a written rule. If it was common place the other way then I might focus on just the story but it is not.

Can we not interpret this positively? If I look at commercials, for instance, one almost never sees interracial couples; it's always a male and a female of the same ethnicity being paired together (heterosexist, too, but that's another thing), as though miscegenation laws were still in place. Sci-fi, of which we certainly could consider comics a variant, has long pioneered resistance to this kind of 'each in their own place' thinking, with relationships across racial and even species lines. Is your argument, then, that this initial desire to showcase diversity has turned into its own normative scheme? Considering recent polling (U.S. Gallup Poll), it seems to me that there continues to be a need for positive media representations of cross-'race' couples, particularly black/white.

Then you have a problem with her being white and you are, by definition, racist.

So. You falsely accuse me of flaming other posters, then turn around and do exactly that. Bravo.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Yes, I know. What's your point? They still changed the ethnicity of an established character, which you're claiming to oppose. Did so with the Wasp, too, and made Colossus gay, etc.

They took an existing character and based an entirely new one off of him using the same rule about basing his appearance on someone that was cool at the time - in this case Jackson.

Yeah, that's one of my favorite arguments, when a bunch of WASP boys shrug their shoulders and say, gosh, unfortunately the really cool characters come from a time when white was all there was, so, guess there's nothin' we can do about it. There's never a moment of reflection to say - hey, why don't I personally ever find characters different from me compelling? Why don't I think Storm is as awesome as I think Wolverine is?

That's your problem. I think Wolverine is over exposed and Storm is a great character who should have been treated better when the X-Men movies were cast. As it's you, however, I suspect this argument is nothing to do with Storm being black and Wolverine being white, is it ?

I haven't made the argument you claim I have. My argument is that Stan Lee and his various partners created characters the way they wanted to created them.

I'm getting really tired of people like you and Trent inferring that those of us who are against unnecessary meddling with these characters are racist and using white as an insult.

I suppose I'm being racist because I don't like Han shooting first too.

Don't let them get to you...this is the same sort of hypersensitive BS that had a few loudmouths griping about Jar Jar and the Neimoidians in the Prequel Trilogy...

 

[darkwing_duck1]

That can very well include making the characters more representative of actual society

Yeah, ya gott'a "represent", after all...

instead of a blinkered, Leave-it-to-Beaver version of it,

Code for "racist" (I thought you weren't accusing the original characters as being racist..."

as they did, for instance, when recreating characters for the Ultimate line.

Yes, where the "heroes" are thugs and the bad guys WORSE. And now we have the Ulti-crap infesting the REAL Marvel universe. And they change the races of characters to pander to the PC crowd.

Multiple reasons have been provided throughout this thread. That you refuse to recognize their legitimacy is your own problem.

No, the problem is that you have presented no legitimate reasons beyond the perceived need to "represent".

I disagree. This is fiction, an exercise in imagination. I daresay many of these characters wouldn't exist if their creators has asked why instead of why not; clung, as you do, to reifications instead of allowing for the natural outgrowth of ideas. Changing things, experimenting--it's fun.

When you play in someone else's sandbox, you play by their rules. You want to truly be creative, then go create your OWN characters. Leave ours alone.

Part of the appeal of the Ultimates lines lie in the fact that these are different versions of the characters, with different ethnicities or orientations;

No, the Ulti-verse only appeals to the "coffee shop commanoes" school of comic reader, who share your warped deconstructionist/reinterpretationist sensibilities.

I've called no-one a racist because, as you say, that would be against board rules.

No, you've done everything SHORT of outright saying it, knowing you're within the letter of the law.

I have identified as prejudiced (racially and, I probably should have added, in a number of other respects) the statements I've seen made here, and I stand by that.

No, you've DECLARED them prejudiced, even in the face of explicit statements by the authors to the contrary.

There's no valid reason to privilege ethnicity or whatever else in adaptations to new media or simply new incarnations if it is not relevant to the character.

There's no valid reason to CHANGE said characters, except for your shallow need to see more "representing" going on and racist assumption that only a character of ethnicity can be a hero FOR that ethnicity.

 

[StarTrek1701]

Are you for real? You do realize that these characters were created at a time when non-white help would likely not have been accepted, and non-white heroes would not have been allowed.

So we should change these characters to non-white characters just to appease the few non-gringos that wouldn't pick up a western comic book anyways?

Second, you're accusing non-whites of cultural appropriation while implying that whites never did any of their own? You do realize the racial origins of jazz and rock and roll, yes?

We are talking about comic books here. Stay on topic.

 

[StarTrek1701]

It doesn't matter if she is an interesting character or not, the fact is that she is white. I am sorry but I didn't live in a fantasy world where I can just pay intention to the story and not notice those type of things. If you look around at sci-fi you well rarely see main characters for are non-white in a relationship with someone non-white. It is almost like it is a written rule. If it was common place the other way then I might focus on just the story but it is not.

If you don't like it then don't read it. Nobody is forcing you at adamantium claws point that you gotta read the 'white only' comic books.

 

[Kirk's_Tights]

Catwoman wasn't black. They just randomly made up some lame new girl and made her Catwoman.

Storm is my absolute favourite comic book character and I would love to see her have her own movie, just not with Halle Berry cast as her. Halle can't be Storm. She just doesn't have the means to pull her off. Storm was a powerful leader. Halle was too soft for me. Her voice needs to be commanding, not a little girly voice, and Halle looked like she was going to cry all the time.

If I had it my way, I would have cast Pam Grier, if she were a little younger. If you look at older pictures of Pam and older pictures of Storm, they actually do look a lot alike and Pam is a powerful woman anyways so it's a great match.


Anyways, I don't mind having diversity at all, I just don't like it when they make a character a race they were not made to be. Clark Kent wouldn't be Clark Kent if he were suddenly a black guy. Blade wouldn't be Blade if he were a white guy. We dont need to change a character's race just to please people, we simply need to include more of these characters of different races.

 

[Galactus]

Then you have a problem with her being white and you are, by definition, racist.

If you believe that then please tell me how you can not be a racist if you don't want a character's race to be changed. Since race is not a big deal and we are all equals what is the problem? If you say it does not matter then it does not matter.

darkwing_duck1
Since you say heroes are heroes for everybody then how can you come back and say ".....leave ours alone."

StarTrek1701
I am talking about superheroes here, not just comic book super heroes, so I think you should stay on point. I don't read anyones comic book because they are bad IMHO now. Doesn't matter the title.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

darkwing_duck1
Since you say heroes are heroes for everybody then how can you come back and say ".....leave ours alone."

By ours I mean the fans of the characters as they currently exist. We don't want them arbitrarily changed just to fit some PC urge to "represent" to some particular ethnic group.

 

[Galactus]

How about someone making the change for no other reason that to tell a story, just like any other interpretation of an artistic work from Shakespeare to the National anthem? There are different versions of all of these characters, why is their race, gender, sexual orientation such a defining factor for you and others?

I keep hearing how we are all just one group of people but I am not seeing any comments to support that. I mean how is Superman, Spiderman, Black Panther, Steel, Goku, Batman, Wonder Woman, Sailor Moon and countless others anymore yours than they are mine or anyone else.

 

[Hermiod]

Catwoman wasn't black. They just randomly made up some lame new girl and made her Catwoman.

Storm is my absolute favourite comic book character and I would love to see her have her own movie, just not with Halle Berry cast as her. Halle can't be Storm. She just doesn't have the means to pull her off. Storm was a powerful leader. Halle was too soft for me. Her voice needs to be commanding, not a little girly voice, and Halle looked like she was going to cry all the time.

If I had it my way, I would have cast Pam Grier, if she were a little younger. If you look at older pictures of Pam and older pictures of Storm, they actually do look a lot alike and Pam is a powerful woman anyways so it's a great match.

Spot on. If they'd made an X-Men movie in the 70's Grier would have been even more perfect.

Anyways, I don't mind having diversity at all, I just don't like it when they make a character a race they were not made to be. Clark Kent wouldn't be Clark Kent if he were suddenly a black guy. Blade wouldn't be Blade if he were a white guy. We dont need to change a character's race just to please people, we simply need to include more of these characters of different races.

Exactly what I've been saying all along.

If you believe that then please tell me how you can not be a racist if you don't want a character's race to be changed. Since race is not a big deal and we are all equals what is the problem? If you say it does not matter then it does not matter.

You're saying it does matter. Luke Cage has a preexisting marriage (and a child) with a white woman. That white woman happens to be a superbly written, well developed, interesting character in her own right and isn't just "the wife". As a fan of that character, I would expect her to be in any Luke Cage movie because otherwise you're making a Spider-Man movie and leaving out MJ, Jameson, Aunt May and so on or a Superman movie and leaving out Lois, Perry White, Jimmy Olsen etc.

You're saying Cage, because he's black, should have a black wife. I'm white, should I not think that Zoe Saldana is beautiful ? Should I avert my gaze every time she's on screen in Star Trek ? What about Rachel Nichols ? She's green!

 

[Kirk's_Tights]

If you believe that then please tell me how you can not be a racist if you don't want a character's race to be changed. Since race is not a big deal and we are all equals what is the problem? If you say it does not matter then it does not matter.

I am sincerely hoping you're joking with this statement because it's one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

As I mentioned, my favourite character ever is Storm from X-Men. If she were suddenly made to be a white character, I would be pissed. She was not made to be a white person and you can't change that because it wouldn't be Storm anymore. You can't suddenly change your race in reality so it's just as stupid in the comic book world. Batman wouldn't be Batman if he weren't a white Bruce Wayne.

The fact that you find this to be racist is beyond me. I am white and my favourite character is black. It has nothing to do with racism at all, it has to do with the origins of the character. That's why changing race is a dumb move. The character isn't that character anymore.

 

[Galactus]

Again you guys are missing the point. If Bruce Wayne was say English would he be any different. What about Clark Kent if he was Canadian? How about Storm if she was South African?

I mean please tell me how Clark Kent would be any different if he was black. Are there no black people from Kansas? Are there no black people that are newspaper reporters? Can an alien not have dark skin? I mean what trait of Superman's actually prevents him from being a black man?

I know I am not changing any minds. It doesn't matter how many examples I cite you guys are just plain ignoring them. The mere fact that you keep mentioning Storm and Blade as your only movie examples just proves the point that there are very, very few minority characters out there. How about citing some Asian and Hispanic heroes? As I have said over and over again those characters are repeatedly played by white actors and I don't see any complaints about those? Where is that outrage like there is for Kingpin, Ripcord, Catwoman (who I could have sworn was played by a black woman many, many years ago) and Alicia Masters?

Hermiod
Doesn't matter how positive the character is the fact that you have Cage married to a white woman is the biggest stereotype there is and I am absolutely sure that you already now this. It has been a sore spot for black people because it seems like a requirement that once you make it you have to get a white wife to make yourself legit. Like I said real world stuff. If the world was a different place then your argument would be true but it is not. When you have a man that is POTUS and is still though of as just another uppity ******* then the idea world you see just does not exist.

 

[David cgc]

Would you get upset if Buddha was portrayed as a skinny white gay guy, and the christian god was a big fat woman from Germany?

Buddha was skinny. The chinese made their buddha statues fat (and chinese, for that matter) because they had a cultural stereotype that wise, contented people were fat. And the Judeo-Christian God is also a bad example, because He's been often as not depicted not as looking like this guy, but as someone more like this guy. Let's not even start with showing Him in this nontraditional depiction.

 

[Kirk's_Tights]

@ Galactus: YOU are missing the point.

Let's use you as an example. You can't suddenly change your ethnicity and if you could, you wouldn't be YOU anymore. It's the same as comic books. Clark Kent is a white guy. He isn't Clark Kent anymore if he's suddenly a black guy or an asian guy. He then just becomes some random guy with a well known name slapped onto him. He wouldn't be the same guy anymore because Clark's a white guy and that is what people know him as.

Chuck Norris isn't Chuck Norris if he's a black ginger. Malcolm X isn't Malcom X if he's a white guy. I really don't get how that is a hard concept to understand.


I have no idea why you think any of this has to do with racial issues. It has nothing to do with that and more to do with the origin of the character.


Eartha Kitt played Catwoman. She was a good Catwoman but she wasn't Selina Kyle, who was originally a white female. It's just not the same.

Also, I am pretty sure I can name more asian and hispanic superheroes than you can. I am just using names of characters more people know and recognise who might not be that much into comics but at least know who I am talking about.


The fact that you come in here and ramble about this being a racist issue makes me laugh my ass off. I am married to an asian and I am a whte female who's favourite character is a black female. You obviously don't know how to spot racism.

Put the racism card back in your pocket. No one is being racist, you just seem to have a hard time understanding a simple concept. If anything, YOU seem to have a problem with white people.

 

[Hermiod]

Hermiod
Doesn't matter how positive the character is the fact that you have Cage married to a white woman is the biggest stereotype there is and I am absolutely sure that you already now this. It has been a sore spot for black people because it seems like a requirement that once you make it you have to get a white wife to make yourself legit. Like I said real world stuff. If the world was a different place then your argument would be true but it is not. When you have a man that is POTUS and is still though of as just another uppity ******* then the idea world you see just does not exist.

Right, I am no longer in the mood for this. Go away and read Alias and then come back to me and tell me their relationship is a stereotype. Until then, I'm done here.

 

[Galactus]

Kirk's_Tights

How about you just answer my question? Tell me what about Clark Kent makes it so he has to be a white guy? I mean tell me one single thing? I think it is a simple enough question when you say it will completely change him into another character.

Again where is the outrage when the other characters race is changed if you feel that strongly about it.

And we are talking about fictional characters here not real people. I think that is the point you are missing. If you are telling the story over from the beginning not seeing the problem. I have cited countless examples of works throughout time that have been told in different ways. You ignore those.

You are also using the argument that since I am married to a person of X race/culture, then I could not possibly be racist in my thinking. I like X character and they are of this race/culture so I could not possible be a racist. That can work both ways. Some of my favorite characters are Superman, Captain America, Thor, Goku and Iron Man. One of my least favorite is Storm.

And when I said superheroes, I was talking on the big screen not in comics. If you are including manga with American comics then I know you know more heroes than I do.

Also you just admitted that Eartha Kitt was a good Catwoman, just not the one you knew and I think that is the point in a nutshell. For people that like science fiction and fantasy most sure expand their imaginations much.