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So have things really changed

Let's surmise: You're white, you're racist. That's the argument I've seen time and again. No one dares out-right say it but that's the implication.

Do I care if they change a character's race, gender, ethnicity, etc? Only if they do it to placate some ridiculous argument, otherwise I couldn't care.

It's different if they do it for a reason. I actually like the Samuel L. Jackson Fury myself. The personality fits better for the roles you usually see Jackson in... unless that's too racist as well? Racism goes both ways but it's only fair to call white people on it. If they were to take a minority character and make them white (which obviously has been done) you'd hear all kinds of protests over it. But do it to a major white character and it's suddenly acceptable? Even if it's only to say "here's a minority character?" No, you can't have it go both ways. Changing someone's identity like that is usually seen as bad for a reason... unless of course you do it to whitey.

Damn, I'm sick of these threads... I always end up having to defend the kind of crap I usually dispise, but it's because the threads almost always turn into a us vs them discussion. "Us" being minorities (usually blacks though) and "Them" being white people as if there is some right to attack whites because they can't fight back against racism against them without sounding racist themselves.
 
Let's surmise: You're white, you're racist. That's the argument I've seen time and again. No one dares out-right say it but that's the implication.

I'm also male so I'm sexist, straight so I'm homophobic and so on and so on.
 
God forbid you are a white male. You forgot to mention you're probably a rapist pedophile too.

Anyhow the answer to this isn't to twist a phrase, "black wash" an existing super hero but make a new one that is from the ground up black and meant to be potrayed as black. Which is not to say a stereotype but someone who we immeadiately see and associate as black.

Luke Cage is a good example of a pre-existing super hero who is black. You don't need to co-opt a super hero into another race to make a super hero. That's just as bad as what they did to Dragon Ball only in reverse. I'd rather see black characters who are black but not a stereotype than see someone take an existing character and make them black or asian or hispanic just to earn a quick buck and some publicity for being "ethinically diverse."

I'd point to Hancock as another good example, except it's not. The character is most definitely not a black stereotype although I'm sure there are those who disagree, he's just a bad stereotype, period. He's a superhero with a complex and a drinking problem... let me count the number of characters who fit that profile. My brain just locked at the prospect of listing ones with either or both.
 
^That's why I think Cage is the most obvious candidate for a movie. He has risen to a position of prominence in the Marvel Universe, he was leader of the an Avengers team after all.
 
That is also why I mentioned him. Of all the existing black heroes, next to Blade, he's probably the most prominent and best example you can think of.
 
That is also why I mentioned him. Of all the existing black heroes, next to Blade, he's probably the most prominent and best example you can think of.

I'd say in comic book terms Cage is the most prominent. Blade isn't really around very much anymore.

I'm sure more than a few people around here will be calling for anything but a white woman to be cast as Jessica Jones. We'll probably end up with Sascha Baron-Cohen cast as Jessie Jones instead.
 
I haven't read comics in years, almost 15 years now so I'm a bit dated on who is popular, although to the general public, Blade is probably more recognizable. The movies helped a lot. And they are talking of a prequel too so Blade and Luke Cage might get movies in the near future.

Oh that Sacha Baron-Cohen comment does give me a thought; what would the reaction be if Luke Cage were made homosexual? Would we see the same demands for diversity?
 
I haven't read comics in years, almost 15 years now so I'm a bit dated on who is popular, although to the general public, Blade is probably more recognizable. The movies helped a lot. And they are talking of a prequel too so Blade and Luke Cage might get movies in the near future.

Oh that Sacha Baron-Cohen comment does give me a thought; what would the reaction be if Luke Cage were made homosexual? Would we see the same demands for tolerance?

Probably not.

Cage is undergoing something of a resurgence that started a few years ago. Writer Brian Michael Bendis is quite well known for enjoying taking characters who other people weren't using and making something of them. Cage started making guest appearances in Bendis' adult-rated title Alias. Alias was about a former superheroine turned private detective named Jessica Jones, a long forgotten Avenger formerly known as Jewel. Cage and Jessica are now married and have a child together.

Cage was the leader of the New Avengers. It was Cage who insisted that despite the New Avengers being unregistered superheroes (and thus wanted by the government), they were still the real Avengers. He eventually gave the position up to Ronin (aka Hawkeye).
 
They took an existing character and based an entirely new one off of him using the same rule about basing his appearance on someone that was cool at the time - in this case Jackson.

Then what's the freaking problem? Every time you create a new live film franchise, a new animation film, a new television series or whatever, you are engaging an act of creation and recreation--of invention and reinvention. You have characters based on already established figures, who are like these characters but unlike them, never exact copies (Heisenburg would have something to say about that). Those in charge of (re)creating a character and his/her adventures does so for a new medium, a new time, a new setting and a new audience. There's no difference between what Marvel did when they created a new version of Nick Fury for Ultimates and what the people who made the Daredevil film did when casting their Kingpin.

I haven't made the argument you claim I have. My argument is that Stan Lee and his various partners created characters the way they wanted to created them.

And nothing must ever change? I think somebody mentioned Shakespeare; hs plots and characters have been transposed to every setting imaginable, because that is the flexibility inherent in art, and most of the characters we're talking about here share that flexibility. The recently released Iron Man film had him injured in Afghanistan, not Vietnam. Is that, too, needless meddling with the character, distorting the story the creators set out to tell? Because it is the injury and the experience of it that is relevant, not where it occurs. Similarly, you could have a black or asian Tony Stark, because ethnicity matters as much to the character as where he was wounded: which is to say, they don't. So unless you're a complete purist who will accept nothing but a panel by panel rendition of the source material (and even then, new media means new interpretation, no matter how faithful one tries to be), I would like to know why you are fixating on this idea of ethnicity as unchangeable--as transgressive to even mention it--when other, equally relevant things can be changed?

Do I care if they change a character's race, gender, ethnicity, etc? Only if they do it to placate some ridiculous argument, otherwise I couldn't care.

And who, pray tell, is doing that? You claim not to be discriminatory, yet you seem to know the talking points of the Thurmonds and Limbaughs fairly well, shoe on the other foot and all that. Here's a reality check: the pricks who run the political correctness myth would like you to believe that everybody is just as racist and prejudicial as they are, and they are just the ones who say so openly. That the 'libruls' are just cowards and hypocrites, and that diversity is code-word for some for of conspiracy as though as those who embrace the idea do so at the behest of some shadowy cabal somehow controlling the lexical and ideological strings of their puppets. This is pure crap. I love diversity, for no other reason than because it is diverse. I call myself 'heterophile', a lover of difference. Maybe it's the city-boy talking, but homogeneity has always creeped me the fuck out. I consider the benefits mentioned here, and it is just a perfunctory, limited description, worthwhile goals in and of themselves, legitimately pursued.

If they were to take a minority character and make them white (which obviously has been done) you'd hear all kinds of protests over it. But do it to a major white character and it's suddenly acceptable?

That's because it's usually done for racist reasons, because of the belief of producers that straight white men don't want to see characters different than themselves, can't relate to them. Individually, as a straight white male, if someone were to lay that on me, I would be thoroughly insulted--and yet, the statistics are there. That's not saying that white = racist, but it is a demonstration of how many people out there still cling to benighted views, howsoever they justify it to themselves.

And there is a good converse example: nuBSG and Saul Tigh. Unlike many characters of minority background in contemporary settings, who producers insist on making jive-talking or fitting some other pigeonholed stereotype, the futuristic setting meant one could detach them from our habitual notions of race or gender (or invent new ones, like the Sagiterrons), and as such could, and were, mixed up to produce an overall more diverse crew--one that just happened to have a white man in what had been a role played by a black man. No problem there.

I always end up having to defend the kind of crap I usually dispise, but it's because the threads almost always turn into a us vs them discussion. "Us" being minorities (usually blacks though) and "Them" being white people as if there is some right to attack whites because they can't fight back against racism against them without sounding racist themselves.

Oh, cut the persecution crap. You're the one who has been trying to introduce an "Us vs. Them" paradigm with shit like this:

Let's surmise: You're white, you're racist. That's the argument I've seen time and again. No one dares out-right say it but that's the implication.

I have never said such a thing. I have never believed such a thing. I will say, however, that I am concerned about the assumptions you've jumped to, that this should be a conflict divided along racial lines, and in trying to paint yourself as a victim of some kind of reverse discrimination and other such trite regurgitations.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
Then what's the freaking problem? Every time you create a new live film franchise, a new animation film, a new television series or whatever, you are engaging an act of creation and recreation--of invention and reinvention. You have characters based on already established figures, who are like these characters but unlike them, never exact copies (Heisenburg would have something to say about that). Those in charge of (re)creating a character and his/her adventures does so for a new medium, a new time, a new setting and a new audience. There's no difference between what Marvel did when they created a new version of Nick Fury for Ultimates and what the people who made the Daredevil film did when casting their Kingpin.

You'd be changing them for the sake of changing them. Why ? Because there aren't any white actors capable of playing Spider-Man ? Michael Clarke Duncan, for me, ticked as many boxes as he could for the Kingpin. There was only one missing, his skin colour. Kingpin is a difficult character to cast because he's so big. I can make a compromise there.

Changing, for example, Spider-Man so he's latino (and thus, by extension Aunt May and Uncle Ben too) changes the boxes you need to tick.

And nothing must ever change? I think somebody mentioned Shakespeare; hs plots and characters have been transposed to every setting imaginable, because that is the flexibility inherent in art, and most of the characters we're talking about here share that flexibility. The recently released Iron Man film had him injured in Afghanistan, not Vietnam. Is that, too, needless meddling with the character, distorting the story the creators set out to tell? Because it is the injury and the experience of it that is relevant, not where it occurs. Similarly, you could have a black or asian Tony Stark, because ethnicity matters as much to the character as where he was wounded: which is to say, they don't. So unless you're a complete purist who will accept nothing but a panel by panel rendition of the source material (and even then, new media means new interpretation, no matter how faithful one tries to be), I would like to know why you are fixating on this idea of ethnicity as unchangeable--as transgressive to even mention it--when other, equally relevant things can be changed?

The Iron Man thing is a matter of realism and the problems with turning comic book sliding timelines in to modern films. Robert Downey Jnr simply isn't old enough to have been anywhere near Vietnam.

I have never said such a thing. I have never believed such a thing. I will say, however, that I am concerned about the assumptions you've jumped to, that this should be a conflict divided along racial lines, and in trying to paint yourself as a victim of some kind of reverse discrimination and other such trite regurgitations.

You have yet to come up with any reason to change the characters other than some hypothetical "diversity" that it would supposedly create. Instead of asking why not you should be asking why. You have not come up with a good reason why promoting existing minority characters is not preferable to just messing around with existing white ones. You have to have a reason for doing things like this.

What benefit does it have ? What real cause does it serve ?

All you and others like you have done is throw accusations and insults around which is hardly doing yourself. You started off by labeling everyone who disagreed with you racist and went from there. If I thought it would do any good I'd ask the mods to get involved because right now you are drifting towards flaming.
 
Ok here is the problem that you are missing. The big shirts don't promote characters of different races. They dodge it ever single chance they get. Only example I can think of is Blade and most people have no idea he was a comic book character to begin with. The studio backtracked on Green Lantern and went with the safe white guy. Dragonball went with a white guy instead of an Asian guy and I am gathering The Last Airbender is doing the same thing.

So let's talk real world and not pretend. Those are three real world recent decisions mad by the studios to squash diversity. Tell me exactly how one is suppose to react to that? That was the whole point of the thread. It is 2009 and we still have studios doing the same things they have always done with no change whatsoever.
 
Ok here is the problem that you are missing. The big shirts don't promote characters of different races. They dodge it ever single chance they get. Only example I can think of is Blade and most people have no idea he was a comic book character to begin with. The studio backtracked on Green Lantern and went with the safe white guy. Dragonball went with a white guy instead of an Asian guy and I am gathering The Last Airbender is doing the same thing.

So let's talk real world and not pretend. Those are three real world recent decisions mad by the studios to squash diversity. Tell me exactly how one is suppose to react to that? That was the whole point of the thread. It is 2009 and we still have studios doing the same things they have always done with no change whatsoever.

I have not once argued against having prominent black characters or characters of any minority. I've sat here and said again and again how great a Luke Cage movie would be.

I already said that I don't know anything about Dragonball or Avatar but if they have cast the wrong people in key roles then that's wrong and I disagree with it as much as I would someone casting Will Smith as the Steve Rogers Captain America. (Now, Isiah Bradley I could get on board with)

I don't blame you for being angry about decisions like that. It's insulting to me too because the studios behind these films seem to think that I can't deal with having a black or an Asian star in a movie. Never mind the fact that the aforementioned Mr. Smith is the world's biggest box office draw.
 
The source material is absolutely the most important thing here otherwise you may as well just invent new characters.

There is no point spending millions on the rights to a character and then changing him or her beyond all recognition.

But changes to characters for an adaptation frequently happen, and sometimes they're as good or better than the original. Making Batman willing to kill in B89 may have changed him from what a lot of people thought he was but that didn't stop that film from being successful; there wasn't an uproar about Neeson playing Ra's (a character that's appearance hasn't exactly been fixed in the comics) in BB.
 
The source material is absolutely the most important thing here otherwise you may as well just invent new characters.

There is no point spending millions on the rights to a character and then changing him or her beyond all recognition.

But changes to characters for an adaptation frequently happen, and sometimes they're as good or better than the original. Making Batman willing to kill in B89 may have changed him from what a lot of people thought he was but that didn't stop that film from being successful; there wasn't an uproar about Neeson playing Ra's (a character that's appearance hasn't exactly been fixed in the comics) in BB.

I can only see it if it really is something that people truly believe will make the movie better. Otherwise, it's one step removed from Greedo shooting first - it's just stamping on the character for no real reason.
 
Michael Clarke Duncan, for me, ticked as many boxes as he could for the Kingpin. There was only one missing, his skin colour. Kingpin is a difficult character to cast because he's so big. I can make a compromise there.

Changing, for example, Spider-Man so he's latino (and thus, by extension Aunt May and Uncle Ben too) changes the boxes you need to tick.

The Iron Man thing is a matter of realism and the problems with turning comic book sliding timelines in to modern films. Robert Downey Jnr simply isn't old enough to have been anywhere near Vietnam.

Oh, good. Instead of answering the question you nitpicked my examples with shifting goalposts and ignored the underlying issue: things change all the time, no source inerrant and absolute, and yes, they change to become more realistic and more modern. That can very well include making the characters more representative of actual society instead of a blinkered, Leave-it-to-Beaver version of it, as they did, for instance, when recreating characters for the Ultimate line.

You have yet to come up with any reason to change the characters other than some hypothetical "diversity" that it would supposedly create.

Multiple reasons have been provided throughout this thread. That you refuse to recognize their legitimacy is your own problem.

Instead of asking why not you should be asking why.

I disagree. This is fiction, an exercise in imagination. I daresay many of these characters wouldn't exist if their creators has asked why instead of why not; clung, as you do, to reifications instead of allowing for the natural outgrowth of ideas. Changing things, experimenting--it's fun. Part of the appeal of the Ultimates lines lie in the fact that these are different versions of the characters, with different ethnicities or orientations; or the Exiles book, which likewise enjoys playing around with new interpretations on established characters, switching up gender and yes, even ethnicity. Really, comic book characters have had, even in their original media, more versions of themselves than characters from any other media, and that's not counting the fact that they are reinvented countless times for films and television shows. They are undoubtedly the most flexible and adaptable personas out there, which makes your 'strict constitutionalist' approach even less relevant when it has never been the case, and not even the source material shares it.

You started off by labeling everyone who disagreed with you racist and went from there. If I thought it would do any good I'd ask the mods to get involved because right now you are drifting towards flaming.

Running to Neroon's vestments? I've called no-one a racist because, as you say, that would be against board rules. I have identified as prejudiced (racially and, I probably should have added, in a number of other respects) the statements I've seen made here, and I stand by that. There's no valid reason to privilege ethnicity or whatever else in adaptations to new media or simply new incarnations if it is not relevant to the character.

I can only see it if it really is something that people truly believe will make the movie better.

And yet again the point soars massively over your head. Nobody is making such decisions 'just because'; all changes are made because who making it believe that it will be beneficial, to the story, audience or whatever. Do such changes always succeed? No, of course not. But incompetance in execution doesn't make the original intentions any less legitimate.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
Running to Neroon's vestments? I've called no-one a racist because, as you say, that would be against board rules. I have identified as prejudiced (racially and, I probably should have added, in a number of other respects) the statements I've seen made here, and I stand by that. There's no valid reason to privilege ethnicity or whatever else in adaptations to new media or simply new incarnations if it is not relevant to the character.

Goddamn but there's a fuckload of racism in this forum.

'nuff said.
 
So people want John Stewart because of the fact that he's black and we need more diversity?

Huh.

I just want John Stewart in the movie because of all the Earth-Born Lanterns, he's the serious thinker of the group. His mind tends to be focused and ordered and I love the stuff his Ring comes up with as a result. He's a great character in his own right.

I've got similar arguments for Kyle Rainer & Guy Gardner too.
 
I guess the answer to my question is no. The next question is do most people care? The answer to that is no?

Not to bring a TNZ discussion in here, but what actually defines a person as a racist? Seems that question is being asked in Washington right now.
 
I guess the answer to my question is no. The next question is do most people care? The answer to that is no?

I do care in so much that I would love to a Luke Cage movie and I think it'd be great to have multiple Lanterns - including Jordan, Stewart and Gardner, in the movie because I think that's an important part of the Green Lantern story.

I do find, however, that a lot of characters seem to be a little bit on the nose as far as the message they're trying to send goes. Black Lightning, Black Panther, Ms. Marvel and so on. Look at me! I'm a superhero! And I'm BLACK!

I would much rather see characters where they're just who they are and it's no big deal.

Not to bring a TNZ discussion in here, but what actually defines a person as a racist? Seems that question is being asked in Washington right now.

Racism is the display of negatively prejudiced attitudes based on ethnicity. Unfortunately, more than a few people have gotten it in to their heads that racism is the display of negatively prejudiced attitudes towards black people by white people.

Racism is most certainly not the exclusive domain of "whitey" or WASPs - those terms themselves are racist.
 
Hmm we need more female superheroines out there. Lets make Thor female, and lets make her a Lesbian too. Oh and a Whale Lover and a single mother. groovy. :rolleyes:

Hmm - as long as they keep the blonde hair... ;)

Btw, what is 'a Whale Lover'? Somebody who loves big fat females? or Save the Whales kinda thing? :confused:
 
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