So have things really changed

[Hermiod]

^stueyross' point is that changing characters unnecessarily just to be more "diverse" fundamentally damages the film you are trying to make.

Look at how people reacted when details of JJ Abrams' attempt at Superman leaked. A Lex Luthor a Kryptonian ? Huh ? Why change the character ?

The characters appearing in popular films now may have been created in a racist time, but they themselves are not fundamentally racist.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

Unfortunately the really popular superheroes are still mostly limited to the major characters created in the Golden Age and Silver Age (who of course are all white). It's been difficult for newer and/or lesser known characters, white and black, male and female, to break through. There have been a few here and there who have done so, but not that many.

There needs to be a steady push from the comic companies to increase the visibility of their secondary and tertiary characters, especially in media outside of comics. That would help strengthen their overall brand and could help increase diversity. And that greater diversity could be delivered by being true to the comics rather than deviating from them. Let's see Steel (done properly), Vixen, the Jaime Reyes version of Blue Beetle, the Ryan Choi version of the Atom, etc, get featured in films and/or TV shows.

 

[Galactus]

If that was the point then I missed it cause I only saw the complaints come one way. As you saw from my post I am not up for just changing characters for no reason, but I am not opposed to making any changes. Whether it is a good or bad change is subjective.

While the characters themselves are not racists their very existence still comes off that way to some. Let's face it just about all the superheroes everyone knows is basically a WASP. So if nothing is done to either change the existing characters or introduce new ones, then it will always be that way.

I mean when Hollywood makes movies like Dragonball and Avatar then the argument stueyross made goes right out the window especially with Hal Jordan who is a reboot of the original concept to begin with and you have a Green Lantern that most of the audience already knows as being black and wasn't he suppose to be black in the proposed Justice League movie? If so then a decision was made to go with Hal instead of John.

 

[Newski]

A Luke Cage movie could work if they cast a decent actor and don't chicken out when they realise his wife is white.

I wouldn't involve her, actually, mostly because I'm a bigger fan of Early Luke Cage.

I'd probably try to get the feel of the Blaxploitation-inspired 70s comics with the more modern interpretation of the character.

 

[Hermiod]

I mean when Hollywood makes movies like Dragonball and Avatar then the argument stueyross made goes right out the window especially with Hal Jordan who is a reboot of the original concept to begin with and you have a Green Lantern that most of the audience already knows as being black and wasn't he suppose to be black in the proposed Justice League movie? If so then a decision was made to go with Hal instead of John.

I can only comment on things that actually happened and not speculation. I continue to see no reason why John Stewart cannot be used in any live action Green Lantern production.

I can't talk much about the Dragonball movie because I didn't see it, I have no interest in it or the source material. Same goes for Avatar, assuming we are talking about The Last Airbender and not the forthcoming James Cameron movie. If they have miscast roles in those then I'm sure that's very disappointing for their fans.

I am interested, however, in comic books, and there stueyross' point stands. I do not want to see a female, lesbian Thor. Nor do I want to see a white Luke Cage.

 

[Trent Roman]

Goddamn but there's a fuckload of racism in this forum. The only relevant question here is whether the character's ethnicity in the original/source material is relevant to the character itself. If so, no change; if not, than people recreating it are free to mix it up however they so choose. Captain American can only be white because he held a position of authority during a racist time when a black man couldn't have. Thor can only be white because he's a Norse god. But for most of these characters, it just doesn't matter. There's no reason Nick Fury can't be black. There's no reason Batman couldn't be asian. There's no reason Spiderman couldn't be a Spiderwoman. Is a loner bitten by a spider something that can only happen to a white male? Nonsense. This pointless clinging to appearance and surfaces is purely reactionary, and I have a hard time seeing how it is any different from any other similarly phobic complaints that the 'character' of something (a neighbourhood, a swimming pool) will be changed as its ethnic make-up changes. "Dem's the way I grew up with it and I don't wants it to change."

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Hermiod]

^There's every reason why the changes you suggest can't take place - the main one being that Spider-Man is a white, American male. Spider-Woman is an existing character - well, three existing characters, actually.

If anything, it's racist to suggest that there's something wrong with those characters just because they are white. The source material is absolutely the most important thing here otherwise you may as well just invent new characters.

There is no point spending millions on the rights to a character and then changing him or her beyond all recognition.

 

[Trent Roman]

^There's every reason why the changes you suggest can't take place - the main one being that Spider-Man is a white, American male. Spider-Woman is an existing character - well, three existing characters, actually.

Really? And what is so quintessentially white male about Spiderman's experience that it couldn't work just as well for a black or latino kid from Queens? (Yes, I'm aware of the various Spiderwomen, but that's not the point I'm making here.)

If anything, it's racist to suggest that there's something wrong with those characters just because they are white.

I have suggested no such thing. My point is that most of these characters will work just as well no matter what their pigmentation is. To cling to apperance where there's no other relevance is just to be mired in the past.

There is no point spending millions on the rights to a character and then changing him or her beyond all recognition.

Changing the character's ethnicity is changing them 'beyond all recognition?' Do you listen to yourself? Do you realize the extremism you're espousing?

I had no problems recognizing Nick Fury in his cameo at the end of Iron Man. I had no problems recognizing Kingpin in Daredevil. If you did, might I suggest you get your vision checked.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Hermiod]

^I suggest you get your facts straight when it comes to Fury. Try reading the thread properly.

50 year old characters are who they are and no misguided political correctness is going to change that. Lee and Ditko created Peter Parker the way he is and it's a damned insult to think that you know better when you can't even spell his name.

 

[Trent Roman]

^I suggest you get your facts straight when it comes to Fury. Try reading the thread properly.

I have. Enlighten me.

50 year old characters are who they are and no misguided political correctness is going to change that.

Oh noes! PC-ness! I don't buy into right-wing fictions like creationism and political correctness. How about you come back with a level of argument somewhere above that of Helen Lovejoy.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Hermiod]

Jackson gave Mark Millar and Bryan Hitch written permission to use his likeness for the Ultimate universe version of Fury years before he was cast in the role.

Lee and Ditko created a character. Ditko is an artist, comic book characters are as much about their appearance as anything else. Comic book characters appear in a visual medium. Changing them for the sake of changing them does nothing for diversity.

Now, you can either see that or you can go on calling me names. Standard practice for these threads. Call me racist for sticking to the comics if you want but I am a fan.

Oh, and you might want to check my voting record before you call me right wing again.

 

[Trent Roman]

Jackson gave Mark Millar and Bryan Hitch written permission to use his likeness for the Ultimate universe version of Fury years before he was cast in the role.

Yes, I know. What's your point? They still changed the ethnicity of an established character, which you're claiming to oppose. Did so with the Wasp, too, and made Colossus gay, etc.

Changing them for the sake of changing them does nothing for diversity.

I don't know about change for the sake of change, but it certainly does 'nothing' for diversity. It undermines the Good Old Boys club produced as a result of authorship in a racist era and more accurately reflects the constitution of society. One should not simply and uncritically duplicate the ethnocentrism and androcentrism of comic books of years past without regard for its broader social implications, or one is just as guilty of blindness as they were--and certainly not in the name of maintaining the 'purity' of the original vision, particularly when, as mentioned, it makes no difference for most of these characters, isn't relevant to their chronicle. One doesn't have to do so, I don't think, as there are other ways of updating characters and setting to something more modern and less narrow-spirited; it's a choice, and I think either way is equally valid as long as it is done in full understanding. It's the phobic reactions here to the second option that are entirely unwarranted.

Oh, and you might want to check my voting record before you call me right wing again.

If you're not a right-winger, don't go around parroting their fables.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Mr Light]

They changed the ethnicity of the Wasp? I've only read Ultimates III but she looked white to me.

 

[Trent Roman]

Yep, asiatic. By fortunate happenstance, I just happen to have the first Ultimates book nearby. There's a bit where they discuss who they would want portraying them in a film adaptation (since they just sold the rights, in-universe).

Wasp: What about me?

Fury: Heck, who else but Miss Lucy Liu?

Wasp: Oh, naturally. Even though she looks nothing like me, she'd be great because all Asian people are basically identical, right? Who'd be your back-up choice, General? Bruce Lee?

The scene also has a pretty obvious nod to what we were discussing before:

Pym: Who do you think they could get to play you, Nick?

Fury: Why, Mister Samuel L. Jackson, of course. That's not even open to debate, Doctor Pym.

As for Ultimates III, I don't really know. I wasn't really paying much attention, and don't have it at hand. Maybe it got lost somewhere, along with the whole Ultimate-Thor-doesn't-talk-like-a-renaissance-fair-player thing.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

People ask why not make Spider-Man black, or hispanic, or anything else.

But then doesn't that go against most Spider-Man stories we've read? That the powers, the costume, all that, it's not important to the character. But Peter Parker, the unlucky white boy with the supermodel girlfriend, he's what makes it all work?

Change one thing in that dynamic, and you change the character. And if you change that, then what's the point? And how does a studio expect to sell the point?

"Spider-Man's being rebooted, and he's from Mexico! Come see our movie! Stop laughing, we changed it, we're allowed, who cares, he still shoots webs from his wrists!"

Now go youtube "Mexican Spider-Man" and tell me it's the same thing.

 

[Harvey]

Doesn't seem that different to me. Although making him of Mexican descent is less dramatic than what you propose--making him a Mexican national. That may or may not affect the character, depending on how important it is that he is American. I don't know--I'm no expert on comics.

 

[Galactus]

The man said making him Hispanic not making him from Mexico. Two different things. What would change about Peter Parker if he was Hispanic. If Batman was from England instead of the USA would he be a different character?

Actually if you have read comics any length of time you can all point to a What If? or Elseworlds story where they totally changed the character and it was still the character. Outside of comics, you see it all the time in things like A Christmas Carol, The Wizard of Oz, or Romeo and Juliet.

Now I am not saying you have to change characters around, but Ultimates proved that you can do it and people will still like the story. I know change will come it will just be a slow process. Was not that long ago that you couldn't have a believable movie with a non white man as president and that has been done several times over now that no one would blink an eye.

When you think about it it really is amazing that art in the form of entertainment is the last corner of overt racism when it was probably the first to start breaking down those barriers.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

I don't know about change for the sake of change, but it certainly does 'nothing' for diversity. It undermines the Good Old Boys club produced as a result of authorship in a racist era and more accurately reflects the constitution of society. One should not simply and uncritically duplicate the ethnocentrism and androcentrism of comic books of years past without regard for its broader social implications, or one is just as guilty of blindness as they were--and certainly not in the name of maintaining the 'purity' of the original vision, particularly when, as mentioned, it makes no difference for most of these characters, isn't relevant to their chronicle.

Yeah, that's one of my favorite arguments, when a bunch of WASP boys shrug their shoulders and say, gosh, unfortunately the really cool characters come from a time when white was all there was, so, guess there's nothin' we can do about it. There's never a moment of reflection to say - hey, why don't I personally ever find characters different from me compelling? Why don't I think Storm is as awesome as I think Wolverine is?

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I don't know about change for the sake of change, but it certainly does 'nothing' for diversity. It undermines the Good Old Boys club produced as a result of authorship in a racist era and more accurately reflects the constitution of society. One should not simply and uncritically duplicate the ethnocentrism and androcentrism of comic books of years past without regard for its broader social implications, or one is just as guilty of blindness as they were--and certainly not in the name of maintaining the 'purity' of the original vision, particularly when, as mentioned, it makes no difference for most of these characters, isn't relevant to their chronicle.

Yeah, that's one of my favorite arguments, when a bunch of WASP boys shrug their shoulders and say, gosh, unfortunately the really cool characters come from a time when white was all there was, so, guess there's nothin' we can do about it. There's never a moment of reflection to say - hey, why don't I personally ever find characters different from me compelling? Why don't I think Storm is as awesome as I think Wolverine is?

Ah yes, I made an argument like that, and I have never *ever* found a character different from me to be compelling. If you want to argue that the original race of characters don't necessarily need to be perpetuated, that's one thing, but I don't think blanket statements the other way are right either.

 

[Hermiod]

Yes, I know. What's your point? They still changed the ethnicity of an established character, which you're claiming to oppose. Did so with the Wasp, too, and made Colossus gay, etc.

They took an existing character and based an entirely new one off of him using the same rule about basing his appearance on someone that was cool at the time - in this case Jackson.

Yeah, that's one of my favorite arguments, when a bunch of WASP boys shrug their shoulders and say, gosh, unfortunately the really cool characters come from a time when white was all there was, so, guess there's nothin' we can do about it. There's never a moment of reflection to say - hey, why don't I personally ever find characters different from me compelling? Why don't I think Storm is as awesome as I think Wolverine is?

That's your problem. I think Wolverine is over exposed and Storm is a great character who should have been treated better when the X-Men movies were cast. As it's you, however, I suspect this argument is nothing to do with Storm being black and Wolverine being white, is it ?

I haven't made the argument you claim I have. My argument is that Stan Lee and his various partners created characters the way they wanted to created them.

I'm getting really tired of people like you and Trent inferring that those of us who are against unnecessary meddling with these characters are racist and using white as an insult.

I suppose I'm being racist because I don't like Han shooting first too.