So, Babylon 5 on FX (UK), why not?

[Jan]

I bet he had more appearances as a recurring character than Keffer did as a regular, but Keffer was studio-mandated, so it's pretty apparent why JMS was so reluctant to do anything with him.

I gather from a comment that Larry DiTillio made in one of the Other Voices script books that there were other issues with the actor playing Keffer and that a complex scene that would have spotlighted his character had to be dropped because he didn't have the chops to make it convincing.

Jan

 

[Reverend]

Poor guy. The only good performance they got out of him was when they killed him and even that was only because they lied, telling him Keffer was only "injured". Like you could get better from being hit full on by a beam that can slice through a warship like a hot knife through yellow dairy stuff.

Still can't help but feel sorry for the actor, it's not like the character was his idea or that he chose to be inserted in scenes being pally with the command staff for no discernible reason. I mean it's not like they were seen to go out drinking with any other starfury pilots.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Anyway, we've just got up to "Parliament of Dreams", which has slightly restored my rather flagging hopes. In retrospect and with the long sight of years... Babylon 5 begins rather abysmally, it feels like a cheap, inept Star Trek knockoff drowning itself in kitschy sets and intrusive synth (which sadly also underscores the otherwise fine conclusion of this episode). While not absolutely terrible, this has been far, far from good to date and B5 does not seem to have aged that well to me.

I disagree with this rather a lot. It's true that B5 had a somewhat shaky start, but no more so than most of the Star Trek shows and it got good quicker than most of them - I'd definitely take Season 1 of B5 over Season 1 of DS9. The early stages of Season 1 have their moments (and Parliament and Mind War are honestly very good) and the show picks up big-time after Signs and Portents. And I like the kitschy sets!

 

[Kegg]

I disagree with this rather a lot. It's true that B5 had a somewhat shaky start, but no more so than most of the Star Trek shows

Well I was comparing it to Farscape and Battlestar Galactica, not the Treks, so that need not be a disagreement. However, I'll bite.

Confining oneself to the first four or five episodes (the context of the quote), any one of the Treks began with better acting and/or better production values and/or better writing from the outset... except TNG. But, yeah, TNG's first season was very painful and should not be used as a positive example of anything besides the most dramatic example of 'it gets better' known to sci-fi fandom.

DS9 in particular went in all guns blazing with stuff like "The Emissary", "Past Prologue" and "A Man Alone", which are all a cut above the B5 episodes I had been sitting through - not to mention a greater calibre of acting, production quality and writing in that case. Not instant classics - save maybe the pilot - but good, promising hours of TV that were leagues ahead of B5's first few hitters.

VOY may have begun less strongly but it still had superior production values, and I'll give the writing a pass for being about even if already plagued by technobabble. B5's problems are dire enough early on for VOY's flashier production and superior composition (orchestral wallpaper beats aggressively intrusive synth any day of the week).

Which leaves TOS. I guess that depends how you define what the first few episodes are - going by production order this no contest at all as "The Cage" kicks ass, takes names, and seems especially pertient now in our videogame age (basically, the Talosians died as a race because they were addicted to World of Warcraft). Going by airing order, well, "Where No Man...", "The Naked Time", and yes "The Man Trap" are much more fun than B5's first few episodes.

And I like the kitschy sets!

The only one I really hate is the warehouse or whatever you call it in the down below area, the one with all the big crates that every week we head over to for the shoot out.

 

[Lindley]

Technically, I think all the station sets were in a warehouse....

 

[Kegg]

"My shoes are too tight." Ah, Londo, old friend, I'd missed you. Just as the highlight of "Mind War" is G'Kar giving a speech in a B-plot, the highlight of "The War Prayer" is Londo giving a speech in a B-plot.

So, "The War Prayer." The prejudice plot is a trifle on the nose (and while relevant today, in-universe it lacks a little context when referring to alien workers taking Earther jobs - is alien immigration to the Earth Alliance common? Because otherwise this wouldn't be as high up on the racist agenda), but one can't really argue with the gist of it. I would have liked more specifically anti-Minbari rhetoric, given the war and all - the episode takes a while to address them at all, especially since we begin with an attack on a Minbari from the outset.

Oh yes, and those rascally mysterious Vorlons. The special effects fail us when Sinclair appears to be impressed by a bit of technology that is basically just a photo montage with a series of images doing rapid pans in, one after the other. I guess it's impressive that Kosh is actually able to see all these images like this and learn something from them, but eh.

 

[David cgc]

Like you could get better from being hit full on by a beam that can slice through a warship like a hot knife through yellow dairy stuff.

To be fair, it's not like he saw the special effects before he shot the scene.

Oh yes, and those rascally mysterious Vorlons. The special effects fail us when Sinclair appears to be impressed by a bit of technology that is basically just a photo montage with a series of images doing rapid pans in, one after the other. I guess it's impressive that Kosh is actually able to see all these images like this and learn something from them, but eh.

I'm not sure Sinclair was impressed so much as he was curious that Kosh was watching a documentary about Earth, of all things. Imagine if the mayor of Bumfuck, Idaho dropped in on the Secretary General of the U.N. for some reason and caught him watching a DVD about Bumfuck, Idaho. It'd catch his attention.

 

[Kegg]

I'm not sure Sinclair was impressed so much as he was curious that Kosh was watching a documentary about Earth, of all things. Imagine if the mayor of Bumfuck, Idaho dropped in on the Secretary General of the U.N. for some reason and caught him watching a DVD about Bumfuck, Idaho. It'd catch his attention.

His initial reaction is being impressed with the technology, and only then observing (or realising) that the pictures are from Earth, which perhaps makes less sense as that's obvious from the start. Anyway, this is less a matter of budget and more of one as to whether or not visualising it at all is feasible.

 

[JoeD80]

It's just that the Best Buy in the Zocalo told him that the 40" model the Commander bought was the biggest one; so now he knows the Vorlons got the better deal.

 

[Lindley]

The special effects fail us when Sinclair appears to be impressed by a bit of technology that is basically just a photo montage with a series of images doing rapid pans in, one after the other.

[spec]You're assuming those are photos. Maybe they're real-time sensor images.[/spec]

 

[Kegg]

"And the Sky Was Full of Stars." I always liked this episode chiefly because I liked Sinclair's character arc in the first season - what the hell did happen at the battle of the Line, and why does an empire on the verge of victory suddenly surrender? We of course get no closer here than the relevation that the Minbari and Delenn in particular were responsible, though with a Minbari knowing about the 'hole in his mind' and with Delenn's secretive position on the Grey Council one could almost have deduced as much - whch, I guess, makes the relevation feel very organic.

That menacing Minbari guy at the end, less so. Alright, would have made sense at the time, but with what I know now about that arc he seems rather absurd in their demand to kill Sinclair should he figure out

Spoiler: S3

That he's Valen.

Spoiler

What? Why? Maybe S1 addresses these particulars later on, I don't remember, let's go see.

Franke's music for the battle of the line is some of his best yet, but the CGI is for some reason incredibly stiff and slow moving, feeling awkward and lifeless. Never matter - we get our first glimpse at the Minbari ships in this episode, and they're very pretty (and, of course, this isn't the last time we'll see the Battle on the Line.)

[spec]You're assuming those are photos. Maybe they're real-time sensor images.[/spec]

That'd be a trifle expensive for the SFX crew, no?

 

[JoeD80]

That menacing Minbari guy at the end, less so. Alright, would have made sense at the time, but with what I know now about that arc he seems rather absurd in their demand to kill Sinclair should he figure out

Spoiler: S3

That he's Valen.

Spoiler

What? Why? Maybe S1 addresses these particulars later on, I don't remember, let's go see.

Spoiler: S3

Spoiler

Well the Minbari want to ease Sinclair to their perspective. If Sinclair finds out the plans before the Minbari prepare him, Sinclair wouldn't go along with the plan and probably would start distrusting Delenn and the Minbari would kill him at that point.

Spoiler: War Without End

They think Valen's soul would be recycled into another body. The Minbari didn't know about the time travel involved with Valen.

but the CGI is for some reason incredibly stiff and slow moving, feeling awkward and lifeless.

That was a deliberate step-print effect, to make the Battle of the Line dream-like, since it was how it looked in Sinclair's memories.

 

[Kegg]

That was a deliberate step-print effect, to make the Battle of the Line dream-like, since it was how it looked in Sinclair's memories.

If this was the case, it conspicuously failed - dreams look nothing like rudimentary CGI movement. It's jarring rather than etheral.

Anyway, "Deathwalker." I remember liking this episode once because I really liked the basic idea - justice, or immortality? (Immortality, of course.) The dichotomy is shown to be a false one with the Deathwalker's sneering reveal at the end of the episode... only not. She explains that her invention will need living tissue - so?

That's just it: Living tissue. So sheep, cows, goats, the gamut of non-sentient animals could provide the material to fuel the anti-agapic. She says nothing about some need for sentient life to fuel it, which is needed for this to be truly horrifying (well, aside from those who are keen on animal rights, no doubt).

While sort of shocking at the time, the idea that the Dilgar are an extinct species seems wholly conveinent and glossed over now - it's a way to suddenly introduce a former major power who will never again have any relevance to the show ever. The idea that the Centauri and Narn 'collaborated' with the Dilgar is vaguely defined - they didn't seem to be directly allied with them, so did they just supply them with equipment and supplies? And if so, what were the Dilgar doing obliterating the world Na'Toth's family were on? The galactic situation seems a trifle muddled (though it's nice for the minor powers in B5 not being content to be aliens of the week, as they would be on Star Trek).

 

[Jan]

Anyway, "Deathwalker." I remember liking this episode once because I really liked the basic idea - justice, or immortality? (Immortality, of course.) The dichotomy is shown to be a false one with the Deathwalker's sneering reveal at the end of the episode... only not. She explains that her invention will need living tissue - so?

That's just it: Living tissue. So sheep, cows, goats, the gamut of non-sentient animals could provide the material to fuel the anti-agapic. She says nothing about some need for sentient life to fuel it, which is needed for this to be truly horrifying (well, aside from those who are keen on animal rights, no doubt).

While it's phrased so that it might apply to any species, the implication is that the same species that has to die as the being becoming immortal.

The thing that always chilled me in that episode was Kosh coming along and settling things his way.

Jan

 

[Kegg]

While it's phrased so that it might apply to any species, the implication is that the same species that has to die as the being becoming immortal.

I'd never got that implication before and I've seen the episode a couple of times. My first impression was that it meant all intelligent life, so that genocidal wars would be carried out and the like. It would have been nice for this to have been spelled out anyway; particularly as Deathwalker's revelation is completely arbitrary when one thinks about it - she has no particularly good reason to tell Sheridan and she also evidently feels it won't affect the support of her research in the slightest. The writer evidently just felt it needed to be explained so that the preening biowizard had an Evil Motive; so that nobody's eyes are particularly wet when the Vorlons blast her out of the sky (aside: I wonder if they ever reimbursed the Minbari for the lost spaceship - and would the Minbari have ever asked? One wonders...)

A thought on the B-plot: Right now (so far) the Vorlons strike me as altogether too cute. Wouldn't it have made more sense to, well, be less obvious they were up to something shadowy? At the end of the episode, Talia knows that the whole point was to scan her mind and get her deepest fear, maybe if the Vorlon had made with a pretence of negotiation so she'd assume she was contracted normally she wouldn't have acquired that info.

That wouldn't have been as good TV, though. And that's the thing about the Vorlons; as our resident Works in Mysterious Ways bunch they get carte blanche to do things like that which may not strictly speaking make sense.

I never really got why the Vicker looked like a human, also - not only did Talia not recognise the device, but Garibaldi compounds the issue by suggesting that they're popular specifically with aliens. So aliens like human-looking recording systems? Whatever for?

 

[Harvey]

JMS is on record as to not liking the Vicker. He (it?) was a convenient plot device that Divided Loyalties and a departing cast member eliminated the need for.

 

[Kegg]

Yeah, the Vicker is something the more one thinks about the less sense he makes. IIRC the episode suggested he was cybernetic and part-alive, which would mean 's some sort of modified human (or something similar) - is that something you do with criminals? Hmph.

However, from what I've heard of the stuff that got canned, they may have never had to bring him back anyway.

Spoiler: S3 plot threads that never materialised

The material that Kosh needed to re-activate Talia was given to him at the end of the episode by the Vicker, so basically our drinking buddy had done his business.

 

[Harvey]

Yeah, I think you're right on that account. Nevertheless, JMS felt that the Vicker felt wrong as a part of the Babylon 5 universe. I believe he complains that he/it was too advanced technologically. And yet, he went along with the idea, because it was a needed cog (at the time) in the narrative machine.

I love Babylon 5 to death, especially during the third and fourth season, but, at a certain level, everyone on the show is a pawn to be moved in service of the greater picture.

 

[Kegg]

Maybe the Vicker should have just been a Vorlon device. If there's any race which could get away with sufficiently advanced technology that is indistinguishable from a plot device, it's them, and it'd make perfect sense for Kosh to use his own technology.

After all, later on,

Spoiler: Season Two

We see the Vorlons kept Jack the Ripper handy,

so it wouldn't even have to be Vorlon-looking.

 

[Harvey]

...sufficiently advanced technology that is indistinguishable from a plot device...

Arthur C. Clarke humor, I presume?