Sisko's dislike of the Vic Fontaine holosuite program

[Timo]

Some "well-hidden subtext" like that would indeed be welcome here. And I can buy that for a dollar, yes, even if the writers never intended such an interpretation.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

Wouldn't you agree that Sisko is inexperienced in holofiction, in terms of onscreen evidence?

But that doesn't equate to a dislike of holoentertaiment. In fact, from onscreen evidence, Sisko only had a brief problem with the Vegas 1962 holosuite program, and that was resolved very quickly.

I believe there have been a few non-whites who have played baseball over the years...

But AFAIK blacks were banned from pro baseball in 1890.

But from all indications, "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" depicted the modern desegregated baseball era, not the pre-Jackie Robinson era.

 

[Sci]

Wouldn't you agree that Sisko is inexperienced in holofiction, in terms of onscreen evidence?

But that doesn't equate to a dislike of holoentertaiment. In fact, from onscreen evidence, Sisko only had a brief problem with the Vegas 1962 holosuite program, and that was resolved very quickly.

I believe there have been a few non-whites who have played baseball over the years...

But AFAIK blacks were banned from pro baseball in 1890.

But from all indications, "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" depicted the modern desegregated baseball era, not the pre-Jackie Robinson era.

Yes; the extras seen in the crowd very clearly indicate that the era of baseball being re-created is the 1990s (when the episode was filmed), not the 1960s.

And Sisko has a longstanding interest in black pioneers in American baseball.

 

[Kira Nerys]

While watching the Badda-Bing Badda Bang line by line, I got to thinking about Sisko's reaction to the whole program.

In the 24th Century, racism, between humans anyway, is no longer an issue. Proof of such of course is Gene Roddenberry's vision of the future, but also in the program itself. It's creator didn't instal any type of racism into the characters.

The issue of racism from the point of view of people in the 24th Century, is something they only read about in Earth history. It's a non issue to them, it's 300+ years in the past. Racism doesn't exist.

To Sisko however, it's still an issue. Something he's held onto, even though he worked his way up the chain of command to the rank of captain, the Commanding Officer of the most important space station at the time and Commanding Officer of one of the most powerful class of ship in Starfleet. He knows racism doesn't exist among humans towards other humans. Yet he still sees it, feels it and is angered by it.

I don't see why. In today, the early 21st Century, I can see it being an issue, because racism is still an issue among humans.

So, what was the reasoning behind Sisko's dislike of the program. Yes, he was factually accurate about the time period it's set in. Yes, he's right about racism, and that blacks were denied equal rights by a system that didn't see blacks as people.

I just can't figure it out. To me, looking at it from the point of view of a 24th Century human, his reaction makes no sense.

I thought Sisko's reaction was entirely RIGHT.He was having issues with the way blacks were treated in the 1960's Blacks weren't allowed in clubs ,had separate everything from whites .It kind of reminds me ,of the rose colored glasses effect .I think that was what Sisko was saying,Don't paint a picture of life in the 1960's as a pure fanciful, world,portray it as it really was .

 

[DonIago]

...but the point of recreation often -isn't- to paint things exactly the way they were. There's no intention to offend people, and hopefully whoever's enjoying themselves doesn't kid themselves into thinking that what they're doing is an accurate representation. I don't see anything wrong with escapism as long as one's clear that that's what it is.

 

[CoveTom]

From the episode:

KASIDY: Baby, I know that Vic's isn't a totally accurate representation of the way things were, but it isn't meant to be. It shows us the way things could have been. The way they should've been.
SISKO: We cannot ignore the truth about the past.
KASIDY: Going to Vic's isn't going to make us forget who we are or where we came from. What it does is it reminds us that we're no longer bound by any limitations, except the ones we impose on ourselves.

I completely agree with Kasidy.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I thought Sisko's reaction was entirely RIGHT.He was having issues with the way blacks were treated in the 1960's Blacks weren't allowed in clubs ,had separate everything from whites .It kind of reminds me ,of the rose colored glasses effect .I think that was what Sisko was saying,Don't paint a picture of life in the 1960's as a pure fanciful, world,portray it as it really was .

But this wasn't your standard holonovel. If that were the case, I think it would be far more subject to criticism. Most forms of media don't have sentient characters. What was going on with Vic's became more akin to the Truman Show than a historical novel. Vic was a sentient alien, not a human, and Sisko was willing to let him die because of Earth history that was entirely out of Vic's control.

 

[DarKush]

Well, that doesn't sound at all racist...

I see it all the time -- my fellow whites complaining about black people who are offended by historically inaccurate depictions of race relations as pleasant when they really weren't. A lot of people want to white-wash history and pretend things were fine when they were deeply oppressive -- consider Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann's ludicrous claim that the Founding Fathers worked their hardest to end slavery, for instance, or the hostility many have towards history books that accurately portray the racism and imperialism intrinsic to the U.S.'s conquest of Central North America from Native American nations.

Thanks Sci,

I think you hit the nail on the head. Every now and then this issue comes up and people, which I'm assuming many are white, express this exasperation, and for me as a black man I get where Sisko was coming from. He didn't want to be in a place where his ancestors had not been welcome, and sometimes violently so. It was a matter of respect for the past. Sisko's respect for the past was already evident by his African art collection and even his knowledge of baseball. And it carried over to a place and time of hostility to black people that Sisko didn't want to make light of.

I am exasperated by some Trek fans belief that 24th century humanity is like a real thing. Trek is a show written by 20th and 21st century people, generally white males, and their world view is going to reflect in the shows. Roddenberry created Trek to write about the prevailing issues of his time, in the 1960s, not the 2260s.

I am glad the DS9 writers were willing to write Sisko's discomfort at all. I do think there is a tendency to downplay the history of racism in this country. Blacks should just forget about it, is what I hear or read all the time in comment sections. It tells me that my history should be ignored or forgotten because it's not important enough (i.e. black people or their history are not important enough) to be considered or appreciated.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I think the writers dropped the ball, though, given that Vic was in the equation, and we are shown explicit images in Voyager of fully-sentient photonic life forms being treated in a multitude of degrading ways...ways that in my opinion should offend every viewer. And we'd continually been getting the message through VOY, which was running concurrently with DS9 at the time, that the Doctor should be accorded the respect of a sentient life form and that he had rights. He had to fight for those rights and found himself trodden upon by the legal system, including an offensively disappointing verdict (the Doctor being treated as an "artist" but not a life form), just about as weak as the one in "Measure of a Man" (which only resolved the issue of Data being Starfleet property and not his status as a life form).

And what had been done to the other EMH Mark 1's? Sent to the mines? Made to do menial labor for their organic masters? Excuse me??

Vic can only be seen, in my opinion, through the lens of the Doctor and his struggle for rights and recognition as a sentient being.

All of this puts Sisko in a position that the writers should've thought about far more than they did: becoming the one willing to stand by and allow a sentient life form to die because of what happened in Earth's past. And with what we later see in VOY, this puts him alongside people I would expect him to be completely disgusted with, such as those who condemned the Mk 1's to slavery. In short, I think the writers, through inattention and lack of forethought, made him into a flaming hypocrite.

Had we been dealing with a typical holonovel without a sentient character, DarKush, I can tell you that my feelings would be very different. But the writers FUBARed here and to my mind did not accomplish the goal they set out to achieve.

 

[exodus]

While watching the Badda-Bing Badda Bang line by line, I got to thinking about Sisko's reaction to the whole program.

In the 24th Century, racism, between humans anyway, is no longer an issue. Proof of such of course is Gene Roddenberry's vision of the future, but also in the program itself. It's creator didn't instal any type of racism into the characters.

The issue of racism from the point of view of people in the 24th Century, is something they only read about in Earth history. It's a non issue to them, it's 300+ years in the past. Racism doesn't exist.

To Sisko however, it's still an issue. Something he's held onto, even though he worked his way up the chain of command to the rank of captain, the Commanding Officer of the most important space station at the time and Commanding Officer of one of the most powerful class of ship in Starfleet. He knows racism doesn't exist among humans towards other humans. Yet he still sees it, feels it and is angered by it.

I don't see why. In today, the early 21st Century, I can see it being an issue, because racism is still an issue among humans.

So, what was the reasoning behind Sisko's dislike of the program. Yes, he was factually accurate about the time period it's set in. Yes, he's right about racism, and that blacks were denied equal rights by a system that didn't see blacks as people.

I just can't figure it out. To me, looking at it from the point of view of a 24th Century human, his reaction makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. Sisko saw the program as inaccurate and felt that it diminished the struggles of people of that era. He's right. If you read TheGodBen's review of Voyager, you see that he had the same reaction to the depiction of Fair Haven. He's Irish, and long removed from that period, but took issue with the depiction (and rightly so).

Some people take history much more seriously than others. Sisko is one of those people. In fact that is a consistent character trait for him. He collects authentic african art. He built an authentic recreation of a Bajoran light sail ship etc.

As an African American male, I thank you for this.
This is dead on.

 

[exodus]

Wouldn't you agree that Sisko is inexperienced in holofiction, in terms of onscreen evidence? Or then he has given up holoentertainment when coming aboard DS9. Or then he secretly indulges. But the baseball simulation and Vic's are the only two known settings he has voluntarily visited for entertainment (Dr Noah doesn't count - or else we have to start arguing whether black supervillains are acceptable in 1960s superspy fiction!).

I believe there have been a few non-whites who have played baseball over the years...

But AFAIK blacks were banned from pro baseball in 1890. The Negro Leagues only went away in 1948, while baseball died in 2042 already. Lounge singers and their venues would appear to be at least equally persistent a phenomenon (we never hear of their demise in Trek pseudohistory), although of course with the open racism there relating more to the clientele rather than to the pros and practitioners. It's difficult to see why Sisko should feel differently about these things.

Timo Saloniemi

Are you forgetting Sisko's favorite baseball player is Asian?

 

[Timo]

Huh? What does that have to do with anything?

Anyway, racism is selective, basically by definition. And an Asian at Vic's would probably be a non-issue for Sisko, much like it would have been a non-issue at a real "Vic's" in most cases.

Sisko gets all worked up about the Vic's simulation, but is happy with skirting and dodging the racial issues in his baseball simulations. If he "really" (i.e. consistently, from the storytelling point of view) felt strongly about racism in the 20th century, why isn't his other 20th century holosimulation scenario addressing the issue in any way? I wouldn't consider it all that odd if Sisko's feelings in "Badda-Bing" weren't so anomalously strong - or if, conversely, Sisko sometimes made snide remarks about Bashir being totally out of place in the Battle of Britain or Alamo scenarios, and generally was sensitive about race and racism. But hey, he doesn't even demonstrate his patented Evil Eye when Quark challenges him on the issue of racism in "Jem'Hadar".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deckerd]

I think that's a good point. It's the inconsistency of the writers that's more annoying than anything else.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Sisko gets all worked up about the Vic's simulation, but is happy with skirting and dodging the racial issues in his baseball simulations.

How so? He chose a simulation set in a time in which baseball had long since been racially integrated and many black players like Hank Aaron, Bob Gibson, and others had become famous. Are you implying that because baseball had been segregated in the past that Sisko isn't allowed to like it after it's been desegregated?

 

[Timo]

I'm saying that if he really feels about 20th century racism the way "Badda-Bing" makes him look like he's feeling, he should only run baseball simulations where there are racial riots, discrimination, abuse and police brutality!

Anything falling short of that would be betraying his principles...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

I'm saying that if he really feels about 20th century racism the way "Badda-Bing" makes him look like he's feeling, he should only run baseball simulations where there are racial riots, discrimination, abuse and police brutality!

Anything falling short of that would be betraying his principles...

I totally disagree with that. It doesn't make any sense. Why would Sisko want racial riots, discrimination, yadda-yadda, in a desegregated-era baseball simulation where he's supposed to be having fun?

 

[DarKush]

I think the writers dropped the ball, though, given that Vic was in the equation, and we are shown explicit images in Voyager of fully-sentient photonic life forms being treated in a multitude of degrading ways...ways that in my opinion should offend every viewer. And we'd continually been getting the message through VOY, which was running concurrently with DS9 at the time, that the Doctor should be accorded the respect of a sentient life form and that he had rights. He had to fight for those rights and found himself trodden upon by the legal system, including an offensively disappointing verdict (the Doctor being treated as an "artist" but not a life form), just about as weak as the one in "Measure of a Man" (which only resolved the issue of Data being Starfleet property and not his status as a life form).

And what had been done to the other EMH Mark 1's? Sent to the mines? Made to do menial labor for their organic masters? Excuse me??

Vic can only be seen, in my opinion, through the lens of the Doctor and his struggle for rights and recognition as a sentient being.

All of this puts Sisko in a position that the writers should've thought about far more than they did: becoming the one willing to stand by and allow a sentient life form to die because of what happened in Earth's past. And with what we later see in VOY, this puts him alongside people I would expect him to be completely disgusted with, such as those who condemned the Mk 1's to slavery. In short, I think the writers, through inattention and lack of forethought, made him into a flaming hypocrite.

Had we been dealing with a typical holonovel without a sentient character, DarKush, I can tell you that my feelings would be very different. But the writers FUBARed here and to my mind did not accomplish the goal they set out to achieve.

Thanks for your reply Nerys. I don't agree with you about Vic being seen solely through the prism of the Doctor's experiences on Voyager. For one, though both shows share the same universe and relative time period, they are still separate shows and didn't always have fans to overlap. Also the events on either show might have gone totally unnoticed by either crew, especially since Voyager was in the Delta Quadrant and a good deal of DS9 was caught up in a war. With the Doctor being a central character on VOY it made sense to delve into these issues more so than on DS9, where Vic was a recurring character at best. And with two camps of writers could we be certain that they knew what was going on on the others' show?

I checked Memory Alpha and it said the Vegas episode happened in 2375. The episode where the Doctor's holographic rights came into question occurred in 2378. So I am assuming that Sisko was not alone, if he believed that holograms were not sentient. And it doesn't appear that this idea experienced a sea change in the three years between DS9 and VOY's finale.

I also checked out Memory Alpha's page on the Vegas episode. And I found some interesting comments that might put your feelings about the writers in a different light. They are in quotation marks below.

"Of Benjamin Sisko's controversial racial commentary in this episode, Behr explains, "We didn't want the audience, especially the younger audience, to think that 1962 Las Vegas was a place where you had a lot of black people sitting in the audience as nightclubs, or enjoying themselves at hotels and casinos. That just didn't happen. So by having someone of Sisko's historical understanding questioning that fact, we could clarify before we got him to Vic's that he's well aware that Vegas was very, very, very white." (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion)"

"By the time this episode aired, Behr was well aware that there had been something of a fan backlash against Vic Fontaine; some fans loved him, but many despised the very concept of him. Behr specifically wrote Sisko's role to act as a surrogate for the fans who wouldn't accept Vic, with the idea being that if Sisko could be won over, then anyone could be won over. (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion)"

To me it seems like the writers were trying to do what you thought they should have been doing, but perhaps it wasn't written or executed in a way to get that across.

Also, I do find it interesting that some fans (I don't think this is you Nerys) take umbrage about Vic's treatment when this issue emerges yet minimize, ignore, belittle, or dismiss Sisko's feelings about real world racism. Holograms-white male holograms- are more real to them than actual black people. That lack of empathy, of understanding doesn't really surprise me because I've seen it in discussions on this site and others before, not to mention in real life, but it is sad nonetheless. It's like some people want to live in this racial cocoon and the mention of racism is more offensive than the act of racism itself, alleged or proved. Or the very mention of racism is tantamount to racism. I think there is still a lot of deep racial/racism denial in this country.

One more thing...even Star Trek historical events carry long shadows after them. Kirk and Spock took the Eugenics War very seriously for example. And that also played into the legal system well into the 24th century, with Bashir. Just because something happened a long time ago doesn't mean it should be forgotten or that people have 'gotten over it'.

 

[BennyRussel]

Thanks for the thought-provoking thread. I have written posts on this topic a few times and do not wish to rehash, but, in short, my opinion is this.

There were two Black (I don't know if Kassidy was African-American or not) characters in this episode. They had opposing points of view which made sense to each of them and talked it over. In the end, Ben Sisko, saw the Vic program for what it was and got past a hang-up that he had. I think it was appropriate for both characters.

The other aspect is the one that Nerys Ghemor has brought up many times. The fact that Vic is a sentient hologram. The idea is that when he is in peril, the moral thing to do is to protect/save him.

I just think it was a mistake to make him self-aware and sentient. It takes us down a long and winding road. Is he a protected UFP citizen? Does Sisko have a legal responsibility regarding his welfare since his program is resident in the DS9 computer network? If Sisko calls for a self-destruct, is he obligated to make sure Vic's program is put onto a data rod and placed in the hands of a security officer? Is Vic Dr. Bashir's property of his own man?

I agree with others that the ramifications of making Vic "more than a hologram" was one that was not fully thought out.

It also makes me think of poor old Dr. Moriarty on Enterprise D. I wonder if his little illusion program is still running?

 

[Vanyel]

While watching the Badda-Bing Badda Bang line by line, I got to thinking about Sisko's reaction to the whole program.

In the 24th Century, racism, between humans anyway, is no longer an issue. Proof of such of course is Gene Roddenberry's vision of the future, but also in the program itself. It's creator didn't instal any type of racism into the characters.

The issue of racism from the point of view of people in the 24th Century, is something they only read about in Earth history. It's a non issue to them, it's 300+ years in the past. Racism doesn't exist.

To Sisko however, it's still an issue. Something he's held onto, even though he worked his way up the chain of command to the rank of captain, the Commanding Officer of the most important space station at the time and Commanding Officer of one of the most powerful class of ship in Starfleet. He knows racism doesn't exist among humans towards other humans. Yet he still sees it, feels it and is angered by it.

I don't see why. In today, the early 21st Century, I can see it being an issue, because racism is still an issue among humans.

So, what was the reasoning behind Sisko's dislike of the program. Yes, he was factually accurate about the time period it's set in. Yes, he's right about racism, and that blacks were denied equal rights by a system that didn't see blacks as people.

I just can't figure it out. To me, looking at it from the point of view of a 24th Century human, his reaction makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. Sisko saw the program as inaccurate and felt that it diminished the struggles of people of that era. He's right. If you read TheGodBen's review of Voyager, you see that he had the same reaction to the depiction of Fair Haven. He's Irish, and long removed from that period, but took issue with the depiction (and rightly so).

Some people take history much more seriously than others. Sisko is one of those people. In fact that is a consistent character trait for him. He collects authentic african art. He built an authentic recreation of a Bajoran light sail ship etc.

As an African American male, I thank you for this.
This is dead on.

As a Hispanic male of Mexican descent, I do oppose the view you praise.

We Mexicans in Texas were here before the American who brought slavery to us. Going further back in time, I hold no hate or contempt of Columbus, the first slave trader in the New World, or the Conquistadors that followed him. I pity them for their greed and disregard for human life.

The lynchings of my people rivaled those of blacks throughout the southwestern United States. And that happened after we became a part of the United States. Land that legally, by treaty, was to remain in the property of those who owned it before Texas became independent of Mexico was taken from them. Those who were able to keep their land lost it when Texas became a state, despite the treaties and guarantees made for the annexation of Texas.

My parents couldn't speak Spanish on school grounds, even outside of class or before or after school without receiving disciplinary action.

We too couldn't use the front door, we too we barred from many places except as janitors. There were signs that said "No dog or Mexicans allowed" on many establishments. Hispanics couldn't vote, my grandparents couldn't vote, and never did because they still feared the repercussions of exorcising their hard fought for right.

I do look back on those times not long removed from me, and do feel not hate but pity for those ignorant people who committed the atrocities.

The only time I do get mad is when people try to reinstate those policies, under different names, and try to make it sound like they are helping us or the country. Things like voter ID here in Texas or the blatant gerrymandering of districts. Arizona's batshit crazy governor and that states laws. The GOP candidates each trying to out do each other by proposing a bigger more dangerous wall along the US Mexico boarder. Those things made me make me mad because it does show the prejudice that is still here in the United States.

But once these things have passed, and they will, I or the children of my nieces on and nephews will see this all as a time of idiocy and pity these people doing these things.

I would gladly and happily go into a holodeck simulation that showed things as they should have been. I would know it's not historically correct, and I'd be okay with that. It's not a whitewash of history, but a playground. A man as smart as Sisko should have realized that.

 

[C.E. Evans]

^^^
It really goes into the subject of Sisko just feeling differently about the subject than you do. And while he initially had a brief problem with the holosuite program, it didn't take much arm twisting for him to put it aside and join in on the fun.