Sisko's dislike of the Vic Fontaine holosuite program

[sonak]

Hell, Trek went down that path with "Measure of a Man". Other than the medium, what exactly distinguishes Data from the EMH?

quite a bit, actually. Data was deliberately created to have the capacity for growth and self-awareness, to develop beyond the boundaries of his program.

The EMH was designed as a very limited program that was highly specialized to do one task. It's "personality" was basically a copy of Dr. Zimmerman. It was more like a holodeck character than true AI.

So if an entity that wasn't intended to become sentient does so anyway, it shouldn't count?

Tell it to the nanites and exocomps.

I just took a moment to imagine how Trek fans might react if Janeway had told Torres to fresh-boot the EMH because it was never designed to develop sentience.

not exactly what I was saying. How likely do you think it is for a video game character to achieve self-awareness and sentience, even as they move up the ladder in sophistication? Where exactly would the mechanism for that kind of leap come from?

From a materialist perspective, how would that happen? Is it a leap of faith thing?

 

[sonak]

Why did he think the entertainment program had anything to do with history? And why did he think participating in an entertainment program compromised his integrity? And what did it say about his disconnect with his entire senior staff who had no problem with it? That's the embarrassing bit. Poor scripting.

Although Brett is correct. The whole episode was infantile.

Um, why is it "embarrassing?" Sisko was right that the program was inaccurate and did whitewash history. We have similar arguments now about various forms of entertainment, like "song of the south" or "gone with the wind."

I really don't see how Sisko's wrong here. Whether you think he's overreacting is one thing, but he's right on the merit.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Why did he think the entertainment program had anything to do with history?

Maybe because it was set during a time in history?

And why did he think participating in an entertainment program compromised his integrity? And what did it say about his disconnect with his entire senior staff who had no problem with it? That's the embarrassing bit. Poor scripting.

"Poor scripting" has become a cliche for "stuff I don't like." It really has nothing to do with the things you mentioned, and only Sisko's personal feelings.

Although Brett is correct. The whole episode was infantile.

Actually, it's one of the more fun and lighthearted DS9 episodes that still manages to have a bit of social commentary, but doesn't make it the focal point of the story.

 

[Sci]

It's bizarre just how big a mountain fans have made out of this molehill.

I suspect that some white fans are uncomfortable seeing a black man who's not willing to sweep the oppression of blacks under the rug and pretend that everything was just fine back in the day.

 

[DonIago]

Well, that doesn't sound at all racist...

 

[Sci]

Well, that doesn't sound at all racist...

I see it all the time -- my fellow whites complaining about black people who are offended by historically inaccurate depictions of race relations as pleasant when they really weren't. A lot of people want to white-wash history and pretend things were fine when they were deeply oppressive -- consider Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann's ludicrous claim that the Founding Fathers worked their hardest to end slavery, for instance, or the hostility many have towards history books that accurately portray the racism and imperialism intrinsic to the U.S.'s conquest of Central North America from Native American nations.

 

[DonIago]

I won't argue that there are people out there who probably do have such motivations, consciously or otherwise, but I wouldn't ascribe that type of behavior to my fellow BBS members without some hard evidence.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

It's bizarre just how big a mountain fans have made out of this molehill. It's not like Sisko spent the whole episode ranting and raving about how racist the program was and how everyone who uses it is racist, and how he won't allow that filth on his space station. His only rebuke was the entirely appropriate one over the crew using their on duty time and Ops resources to, in essence, play a video game.

That's absolutely correct. He didn't berate them for daring to enjoy their escapist fun or call them racist.

Although Brett is correct. The whole episode was infantile.

Brett didn't say the episode was infantile.

 

[sonak]

I won't argue that there are people out there who probably do have such motivations, consciously or otherwise, but I wouldn't ascribe that type of behavior to my fellow BBS members without some hard evidence.

lol, you make it sound like it's a court of law. Sci was just speculating about a reasonable possibility for why Sisko's actions in this episode get so much attention.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

It's bizarre just how big a mountain fans have made out of this molehill.

I suspect that some white fans are uncomfortable seeing a black man who's not willing to sweep the oppression of blacks under the rug and pretend that everything was just fine back in the day.

Personally, I would not have such a problem if not for the fact that Vic was clearly as sentient as the Doctor. Take that away and make it a standard holonovel without a star who could think for himself, and I would be quite a bit more understanding. It would still seem out of place, but I could at least understand it due to the Benny Russell experience making it more "immediate" to him than to any other 24th century man.

But taking it out on a sentient alien who couldn't help the way he was "born"--being willing to allow that being to die because of a 400-year-old Earth history that Vic can't control (and couldn't control being placed into)--that's where I have a big problem with Sisko's attitudes and actions. It could even be called hypocritical, as there he is doing to an alien exactly what he is criticizing people for having done to his ancestors.

But I would thank you not to impute some kind of racial discomfort to me, and other posters. At least to me, this would not be so bothersome if not for Vic's sentience.

 

[Vanyel]

I won't argue that there are people out there who probably do have such motivations, consciously or otherwise, but I wouldn't ascribe that type of behavior to my fellow BBS members without some hard evidence.

lol, you make it sound like it's a court of law. Sci was just speculating about a reasonable possibility for why Sisko's actions in this episode get so much attention.

It is speculation, and as the OP I'd like to know what evidence he has on it.

I too am a minority, 2 minorities if you include homosexuality, that has and does face persecution. I'm not outraged at the celebration of Columbus Day, I just don't celebrate it. I do fight for my rights, and I voice my opinion at the voting booth. I live in a state that is not very friendly to either of my minority statuses. Yet I don't feel the outrage Sisko displayed.

If I was in a holodeck program that depicted Texas as it really was in say 1910, I'd see signs that said "No Dogs, N******, or Mexicans allowed."

But I'd love to see a Texas, even a fantasy one, that did not depict it. Why? Because in a small way it would show me how ways should have been. How my family should have been treated. It would be both sad and happy because I know it's not real. But it would be a wonderful thing to be able to walk through the front door of a restaurant (Something my parent's and grand parents couldn't do) or speak Spanish in the school yard during recess or before or after school with out getting trouble. Hell it would be wonderful to be able to walk in to a all white Catholic Church and not be shunned by the congregation. Even though it's not real, I can say this it how it should have been and say to myself, "Abuela Maria and Manuela this what you deserved."

 

[Sci]

It's bizarre just how big a mountain fans have made out of this molehill.

I suspect that some white fans are uncomfortable seeing a black man who's not willing to sweep the oppression of blacks under the rug and pretend that everything was just fine back in the day.

Personally, I would not have such a problem if not for the fact that Vic was clearly as sentient as the Doctor. Take that away and make it a standard holonovel without a star who could think for himself, and I would be quite a bit more understanding. It would still seem out of place, but I could at least understand it due to the Benny Russell experience making it more "immediate" to him than to any other 24th century man.

But taking it out on a sentient alien who couldn't help the way he was "born"--being willing to allow that being to die because of a 400-year-old Earth history that Vic can't control (and couldn't control being placed into)--that's where I have a big problem with Sisko's attitudes and actions.

I think that's fair to a point (though I think you're not considering that Sisko was already angry with the overall holo-narrative setting before that issue arose), but that's not why most people who object to Sisko's words object to him. Most of them just object to the idea of Sisko being angry in principle at a work of historical fiction whitewashing the history of American racism.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

After what happened in "Far Beyond the Stars," I could see why his feelings might be closer to a 21st century African-American than what I'd expect in the 24th century. But I feel like he was willing to kill an innocent being over it. Angry mail to Felix? Fine. Agree or disagree, that's within his rights. Killing Vic? No.

 

[DonIago]

Except I don't think "whitewashing" is the applicable term here other than as a matter of fact. Are we really trying to ascribe some sort of nefarious motive to Felix?

Like I said before, if the concern is historical revisionism, I think there must be a whole lot of movies and such that Sisko must be similarly irate about.

If you go into a work of entertainment expecting 100% authenticity, you're probably going to be disappointed.

To me it just seems like a case where the Sisko we'd seen to that point in the series wouldn't have made that sort of fuss over it.

 

[-Brett-]

Personally, I would not have such a problem if not for the fact that Vic was clearly as sentient as the Doctor. Take that away and make it a standard holonovel without a star who could think for himself, and I would be quite a bit more understanding. It would still seem out of place, but I could at least understand it due to the Benny Russell experience making it more "immediate" to him than to any other 24th century man.

But taking it out on a sentient alien who couldn't help the way he was "born"--being willing to allow that being to die because of a 400-year-old Earth history that Vic can't control (and couldn't control being placed into)--that's where I have a big problem with Sisko's attitudes and actions. It could even be called hypocritical, as there he is doing to an alien exactly what he is criticizing people for having done to his ancestors.

But I would thank you not to impute some kind of racial discomfort to me, and other posters. At least to me, this would not be so bothersome if not for Vic's sentience.

My problem with this interpretation is that the characters themselves don't seem to believe it. Their reactions throughout are completely inconsistent with a friend being in mortal danger.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

But based on what we saw on VOY, their friend was in danger.

Of course, we also saw the lack of rights for photonic beings. To me, it would've been better to see Sisko care about the rights of holograms--now that would be putting the lessons learned as Benny Russell into play: by helping others in need, who are not being treated equitably.

 

[Timo]

One thing to remember here is that Sisko isn't all that comfortable with holoentertainment, not in comparison with the other principal characters. We haven't seen him attend a holosimulation more than a tiny handful of times. In "The Siege", he did it for tactical reasons (if he ever even was at Quark's suite, that is). But that was AFAIK his only holodeck visit between fishing with Jake in the pilot and organizing a baseball game in the final season.

Which, come to think of it, should be considered proof positive that "Badda-bing" represents character discontinuity for Sisko (i.e. bad writing). In "Take Me In, uh, To the Holosuite", Sisko pays no attention to the fact that a baseball field would be a racist environment for most of the existence of the game. Odo and Rom might be allowed to play in the Ugly Division - but not with Sisko and Worf (and of course not with Kira or Dax, never mind Yates). If he can ignore that fundamental aspect of the game, and perhaps pretend that his fantasy game is taking place in the narrow time window where blacks would be allowed to play and in mixed teams at that, it should be a breeze for him to pretend that Vic's is a 1990s joint doing retro. Yet for some illogical reason it isn't.

And no, he doesn't go crazy between those two episodes. He does that a season earlier - and then again just before the baseball game.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

One thing to remember here is that Sisko isn't all that comfortable with holoentertainment...

Since when?

Which, come to think of it, should be considered proof positive that "Badda-bing" represents character discontinuity for Sisko (i.e. bad writing). In "Take Me In, uh, To the Holosuite", Sisko pays no attention to the fact that a baseball field would be a racist environment for most of the existence of the game.

I believe there have been a few non-whites who have played baseball over the years...

 

[Timo]

Wouldn't you agree that Sisko is inexperienced in holofiction, in terms of onscreen evidence? Or then he has given up holoentertainment when coming aboard DS9. Or then he secretly indulges. But the baseball simulation and Vic's are the only two known settings he has voluntarily visited for entertainment (Dr Noah doesn't count - or else we have to start arguing whether black supervillains are acceptable in 1960s superspy fiction!).

I believe there have been a few non-whites who have played baseball over the years...

But AFAIK blacks were banned from pro baseball in 1890. The Negro Leagues only went away in 1948, while baseball died in 2042 already. Lounge singers and their venues would appear to be at least equally persistent a phenomenon (we never hear of their demise in Trek pseudohistory), although of course with the open racism there relating more to the clientele rather than to the pros and practitioners. It's difficult to see why Sisko should feel differently about these things.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sindatur]

But based on what we saw on VOY, their friend was in danger.

Of course, we also saw the lack of rights for photonic beings. To me, it would've been better to see Sisko care about the rights of holograms--now that would be putting the lessons learned as Benny Russell into play: by helping others in need, who are not being treated equitably.

And see, I think that's exactly what happened.

I think Sisko objected to taking time away from the war for a frivolous Holosuite vacation, and didn't know Vic, so therefore didn't understand he exactly what he was or where these people's devotion and love for Vic came from. I think the racist stuff he was throwing out was just excuses and throwing anything at the wall he could find to see what stuck. Then, after going into that rage, and thinking about it, he realized he was being unfair and changed his tune.