As argued a couple of years ago:
There is no passage of time between TMP and TWoK - they're not sequential in any way. [However, there is passage of time (i.e., 15 years) between "Space Seed" and TWoK.]
Should TMP be ignored?
- Thread starter WarpFactorZ
- Start date
As argued a couple of years ago:
There is no passage of time between TMP and TWoK - they're not sequential in any way. [However, there is passage of time (i.e., 15 years) between "Space Seed" and TWoK.]
It was a big hit. That was why they made five more sequels to it and are still making Star Trek movies today.
That's speculative. No one can say with any certainty that there isn't. The data points we have are
From that we can guess that Kirk became a desk jockey after five years in space as the CO of the Enterprise and afterwards spent two and a half years at Starfleet Operations.
Which places TWOK roughly ten years after TMP. YMMV
This is why I've always counted a Phase II 5YM in between the two missions, giving time for some giant event (series finale) to retire the ship, stick Kirk back at a desk and rework the uniforms.
It's a question of what strains credulity more: the idea that TMP and TWoK are sequential, or the idea that they're not (i.e., that TWoK is a sequel to "Space Seed" and to the series as a whole, rather than a sequel to TMP). One can find evidence in the movies themselves to support or undercut either notion.
It's a sequel because it's the next movie in the franchise. So it's a sequel to TOS and TMP.
With a decade of time between the two in-universe, not seeing a problem with it being sequential.
Again: If the makers of TWoK had wanted to make TMP-TWoK continuity explicit, they could have very easily done so (as was done in the V. McIntyre novelization). If they'd wanted to make discontinuity explicit, they could have just as easily done so (say, by giving star dates that were identical to those mentioned in TMP). However, there's ambiguity (in part because someone at Paramount decided the film should be marketed as Star Trek II despite the deliberate absence of II from the original theatrical release prints). I simply ask that my view - that Kirk had only one desk job and not two, that the TWoK Enterprise is not the almost-entirely-new TMP ship, etc. - be accorded no less respect than (for example) the Okuda or Memory Alpha timelines.
Yeah, writers aren't as into continuity as fans. They're usually focused on telling a good story.
Don't really care about yours, the Okuda's or the MA timelines. They're all equally irrelevant to what happened on screen.
Almost. Still an old ship. And as I've said many tomes already, Starfleet was introducing a lot of new tech at the time, it makes sense to familiarise the cadets with it, as that's the tech the ships they'll be serving on will use. Furthermore, it is completely possible that Enterprise's position as training ship was merely temporary, perhaps the intention was that the cadets they were training would form a bulk of the new crew once they graduated.
Yes! Because that's how it works. It was explicitly stated that Decker's grade reduction was just temporary, and there is no reason to assume that Kirk's wasn't as well. Regardless of what the writers at the time intended, the idea that one could get voluntarily permanently demoted is silly.
Except there are no inconsistencies unless you want there to be. And for some reason, you obviously very much wan there to be. But this incompatibility is purely your own invention and not something that actually exists in the films.
Though it is not necessary that these things are consecutive with no time in between them. Assuming that rank of Commodore (and Fleet Captain!) exists still at the time, it is possible that Kirk did something between the five year mission and becoming an Admiral.
I consider it a reboot due to the massive visual changes. But, there is nothing story wise in either TWoK or the series proper that somehow makes it incompatible with either.
I would have loved to have seen a sequel film or two films about what happened in those ten years between TMP and WOK with Kirk commanding the refit Enterprise. We would have still seen TMP uniforms.
Last edited:
I would have loved to have seen a sequel film or two films about what happened in those ten years between TMP and WOK with Kirk commanding the refit Enterprise. We would have still seen TMP uniforms.
There could be further refinement of the TMP uniforms, changing the things that were ugly and annoying, eventually turning them into a form where a militaristic / dress style uniform overcoat could be worn over them for certain occasions, and at that point they would start looking like the monster maroons.
For years my dream and hope was that one of the fan outfits would built the TMP bridge set and actually start filming a few seasons of this era. It would be awesome to be able to come up with "new" music, title cards, fonts, intros, etc that are based on TMP and the aesthetics of 1980. The series finale could be the event that changes Star Fleet and benches Kirk for the 2nd time.
Don't think there is quite 10 years between them, either.... but long enough for a second 5ym and the restaffing of the Enterprise.
Whew. Life moves pretty fast...
"Gary told me that you've been friends since he joined the service."
Mitchel is meant to be a little to a lot younger than Kirk. (Lockwood is six years younger than Shatner.) If we keep the relative ages then that would make Mitchell REALLY young when they meet. Even if we age Mitchell up to thirty-ish just as Kirk was aged down.
Mitch is an interesting character in that we ascribe a LOT of importance to him (people got upset that he wasn't in '09) but he was really a throwaway character. He just FEELS like a long running character.
The single datapoint I have for Spock's age is Yesteryear. Spock is 7 when he takes the kahs-wan. It's thirty years ago. Which is the same age as Kirk (Assuming TAS is a year after third season TOS).
In TOS the Enterprise was always meant to be the best and the brightest (certainly one of the 12). TMP indicates that she is now so special that they can't even find people trained on her tech. Much as I hate the TNG parlance of "Flagship of the Federation" let's just say she is now meant to be so far ahead that other ships can't even see her anymore.
Also (again according to Roddenberry) the Enterprise was the only ship to return from a Five Year Mission. Whether or not that means all 12 Starship (Constitution) Class ships or not is another question of course. GR also makes it clear that there was ONE FYM. It was so significant that in the 23rd century he made something called "Star Trek" about it.
TMP the film leaves it fairly clear that Kirk is going to be CAPTAIN now. The novel is more explicit. Kirk has clout with Nogura and he intends to use it.
It's not too much of a stretch to think that five or so years later Kirk is muscled out of the Center Seat again / takes himself out and by TWOK has convinced himself that he can't pull the same trick twice.
Of course Vonda McIntyre takes the tack that Kirk has conned himself / been conned that throwing his notoriety around would be wrong. So no second five year mission after TMP.
Returning to the actual topic, the only reason TOS, TMP, and TWOK have any disparity is the production design. On the written page there really aren't any discrepancies. If you go by what's in dialog (where TMP happens shortly after TOS) and then have TWOK a bit later it makes sense. If you want TMP to happen as far away from TOS as the movie was and then have TWOK a little sooner after then that works too. It's only when you start playing uniform musical chairs that you have any issue at all.
Hell, how many times did one read a Pocket book in the Olden Days and wonder if this was post-TMP or during the FYM?
Someone pointed out that TWOK doesn't contradict TMP but it doesn't acknowledge it either. That's fair. Of course most episodes of TOS didn't make note of other episodes. That's why our head spins when By Any Other Name continuity checks two or three other episodes.
Thank you. And thank you.
Okay, I'm posting this damn book before someone else adds to the thread. And I'm still not ignoring TMP.
Hmmm.
"Gary told me that you've been friends since he joined the service."
Mitchel is meant to be a little to a lot younger than Kirk. (Lockwood is six years younger than Shatner.) If we keep the relative ages then that would make Mitchell REALLY young when they meet. Even if we age Mitchell up to thirty-ish just as Kirk was aged down.
Mitch is an interesting character in that we ascribe a LOT of importance to him (people got upset that he wasn't in '09) but he was really a throwaway character. He just FEELS like a long running character.
I'm avoiding a lot of headaches by keeping the dates relative rather than absolute. Even so, if I put TWOK in 2282 (following the convention of the episodes being 300 years after their air date) then Jim's DOB shakes out at 2233. But I'm more interested in time between events than "This happened in 22 something something." I'm much more a fan of TOS being in the 29th century.
Heh. I never considered John Gill.
The single datapoint I have for Spock's age is Yesteryear. Spock is 7 when he takes the kahs-wan. It's thirty years ago. Which is the same age as Kirk (Assuming TAS is a year after third season TOS).
I'm just quoting this because I agree with all of it.
Well, except it's a Constitution / Enterprise class Starship. You don't see aircraft carriers made into training ships. So never mind the timing, it's a silly idea. Especially since the text of the film indicates that they'll put a new crew back on her and she's off to the frontier again.
In TOS the Enterprise was always meant to be the best and the brightest (certainly one of the 12). TMP indicates that she is now so special that they can't even find people trained on her tech. Much as I hate the TNG parlance of "Flagship of the Federation" let's just say she is now meant to be so far ahead that other ships can't even see her anymore.
Also (again according to Roddenberry) the Enterprise was the only ship to return from a Five Year Mission. Whether or not that means all 12 Starship (Constitution) Class ships or not is another question of course. GR also makes it clear that there was ONE FYM. It was so significant that in the 23rd century he made something called "Star Trek" about it.
TMP the film leaves it fairly clear that Kirk is going to be CAPTAIN now. The novel is more explicit. Kirk has clout with Nogura and he intends to use it.
It's not too much of a stretch to think that five or so years later Kirk is muscled out of the Center Seat again / takes himself out and by TWOK has convinced himself that he can't pull the same trick twice.
Of course Vonda McIntyre takes the tack that Kirk has conned himself / been conned that throwing his notoriety around would be wrong. So no second five year mission after TMP.
Putting TMP in '79 is certainly valid. It keeps the character's relative aging consistent with the actor's aging. (This can't be done with TSFS-TFF since they all lead off of TWOK.) I think that going that way takes a second command for Kirk after TMP off the table.
Returning to the actual topic, the only reason TOS, TMP, and TWOK have any disparity is the production design. On the written page there really aren't any discrepancies. If you go by what's in dialog (where TMP happens shortly after TOS) and then have TWOK a bit later it makes sense. If you want TMP to happen as far away from TOS as the movie was and then have TWOK a little sooner after then that works too. It's only when you start playing uniform musical chairs that you have any issue at all.
Hell, how many times did one read a Pocket book in the Olden Days and wonder if this was post-TMP or during the FYM?
Someone pointed out that TWOK doesn't contradict TMP but it doesn't acknowledge it either. That's fair. Of course most episodes of TOS didn't make note of other episodes. That's why our head spins when By Any Other Name continuity checks two or three other episodes.
It's just Star Trek.
Things don't always match up from episode to episode, and movie to movie. That's the way it's always been, and the way it will always be.
You'll all be much happier and have much better, more productive lives when you all understand and accept that simple fact.
But since that won't ever happen, carry on. LLAP.
Thank you. And thank you.
Okay, I'm posting this damn book before someone else adds to the thread. And I'm still not ignoring TMP.
While the movies themselves don't appear decisive on the issue of whether they're content to exist in the same fictional universe or whether the latter is trying to trample the former into oblivion, this is Star Trek we're talking about. Just like with Isaac Asimov's writing, individual stories may appear independent and episodic and "trying to break from the mold" and whatnot, because that's what they are, but ultimately that's irrelevant. At the end of the day, a new episode of a new spinoff will have been written that neatly ties together the old loose shoelaces, and suddenly it's all part of one big whole again. Regardless of whether that's good for the drama or not.
Ignoring TMP would be done at our own peril, because referring back to things that don't really need any referring back happens in Star Trek a lot. We haven't gotten a TMP reference yet, but we have references to the most obscure things in every spinoff including the most recent movies.
So the only argument remaining to be had is whether ST2:TWoK was intended to be patricide or not (regardless of the fact that it failed to be that). Well, it was marketed as ST2:TWoK, right from the moment they decided not to call it The Revenge of Khan...
Timo Saloniemi
Ignoring TMP would be done at our own peril, because referring back to things that don't really need any referring back happens in Star Trek a lot. We haven't gotten a TMP reference yet, but we have references to the most obscure things in every spinoff including the most recent movies.
So the only argument remaining to be had is whether ST2:TWoK was intended to be patricide or not (regardless of the fact that it failed to be that). Well, it was marketed as ST2:TWoK, right from the moment they decided not to call it The Revenge of Khan...
Timo Saloniemi
You train starship officers on starships. Makes perfect sense to me. And furthermore, as I said before, her position as training ship was not necessarily permanent; the cadets they train might be intended to be part of Enterprise crew once she boldly goes again.
Yet soon there is Excelsior which is superior in every way (except looks). The refit is either a way to test the new tech on their (then) best class of a ship or a desperate measure to keep the old ships relevant. In either case the fleet will soon be composed of ships with similar or superior tech.
This is just off screen talk. Kirk taking her old ship for a little spin in the end of TMP is no indication he would remain permanently in command. To reiterate: the idea of voluntary permanent demotion is crazy.
I posted links above to cruise books for two aircraft carriers that were being used for midshipman training cruises.
https://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv33-47/index.html
https://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv15-472/index_001.htm
Fair enough. Thank you. Looking at the histories of both of these ships they were not used for training ships because they were old, were they? It LOOKS like they were both recommissioned in time for Korea and weren't scrapped until the 1970's. This intrigues me and I'd like to know more.
Well that's the implication of Kirk and McCoy's exchange at the top of the film. It fits the real world example given by J.T.B.
The idea of temporary demotion is crazy too and Roddenberry was told that at the time when he was writing TMP as a TV movie. Kirk could take the Enterprise out as an admiral but he wouldn't hold the rank of captain. (Roddenberry was an Army guy.)
It was a little surprising at the start of TWOK to find that Kirk was an admiral again. Didn't we just do this plot? As said upthread, if TMP had been more successful (it was the odd film that made a ton of money that generally nobody wanted to see another one like it) then the next movie would have opened with James T. Kirk, captain of the Enterprise.
Excelsior would argue for the time between TMP and TWOK to be longer so that would give 10 years of tech development. (The TMP Enterprise's propulsion system was compared to the leap between propellers and jets.)
Of course if TNG had had access to other models the Excelsior class would not have been nearly so successful because we would never have seen her again.
Temporary demotion is indeed crazy too, but that's easier to gloss over.
But that didn't happen. And considering what ended up on screen, it is far easier to believe that Kirk just kept being an Admiral between the films, rather than being an Admiral, get voluntarily demoted, then accept a promotion again, and then regret it again. The latter chain of events just is completely implausible, while the former makes perfect sense.
Similar threads
