• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Should Star Trek just give up?

I don't care so much that there are lyrics, even bad lyrics. I just don't like that the guy cheated the composer out of money he earned. That just isn't a class act.

He has every right to get paid for trek itself, but in a completely fair and just universe, since Courage wrote the theme music, he's earned the royalties. That part *is* greed, at least in my mind.
 
RookieBatman said:
Sharr Khan said:
So, in a way, this great ideal of IDIC that many might credit Roddenberry with would probably not be around if Nimoy didn't have the artistic integrity he does.

Which is good for all of us.

Of course. What I was trying to say was that not only is it not the case that all innovations of Star Trek were caused by Roddenberry, it's actually true that some innovations of Star Trek were specifically caused by opposing Roddenberry.

^^^
This has all been known for decades now. The person to whom we probably owe the most as far as creating the concept of Star Trek that has endured for 40+ years is Gene L, Coon In fact, it wasn't until the Star Trek Conventions started in the early 1970ies - (and after Gene L. Coon's death); that Gene Roddenberry started to take the credit for ALL things Star Trek - even stuff Gene L. Coon added that was actually opposed by Roddenberry until he saw it up on the screen.
 
Noname Given said:
RookieBatman said:
Sharr Khan said:
So, in a way, this great ideal of IDIC that many might credit Roddenberry with would probably not be around if Nimoy didn't have the artistic integrity he does.

Which is good for all of us.

Of course. What I was trying to say was that not only is it not the case that all innovations of Star Trek were caused by Roddenberry, it's actually true that some innovations of Star Trek were specifically caused by opposing Roddenberry.

^^^
This has all been known for decades now...

Yes, but xortex refuses to admit it. ;)
 
BalthierTheGreat said:
I don't care so much that there are lyrics, even bad lyrics. I just don't like that the guy cheated the composer out of money he earned. That just isn't a class act.

He has every right to get paid for trek itself, but in a completely fair and just universe, since Courage wrote the theme music, he's earned the royalties. That part *is* greed, at least in my mind.

It's nice to not care, BalthierTheGreat, if you've never seen them yourself. But once you have read them, they stick with you like a bad commercial jingle.

"Love, strange love a starwoman teaches."

Avoid the lyrics, BalthierTheGreat. Avert your eyes any time you are near them. Run away! Run away! ;)

"I know his journey ends never."

ARRRRRGH! Somebody make it stop.
 
Franklin said:
BalthierTheGreat said:
I don't care so much that there are lyrics, even bad lyrics. I just don't like that the guy cheated the composer out of money he earned. That just isn't a class act.

He has every right to get paid for trek itself, but in a completely fair and just universe, since Courage wrote the theme music, he's earned the royalties. That part *is* greed, at least in my mind.

It's nice to not care, BalthierTheGreat, if you've never seen them yourself. But once you have read them, they stick with you like a bad commercial jingle.

"Love, strange love a starwoman teaches."

Avoid the lyrics, BalthierTheGreat. Avert your eyes any time you are near them. Run away! Run away! ;)

"I know his journey ends never."

ARRRRRGH! Somebody make it stop.

Ok now I unsderstand the pain of it all.
Just put in a CD with something else, and let that play for a while. Your pick of course.

But this one sounds like Xortex
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhhugemQi9I
 
I was looking for TOS theme with the lyrics in Youtube and I ended up with some guy dressed in a redshirt singing his own Lyrics to Voyager.

Now that I've found the real lyrics. It doesn't look that bad.
 
Franklin said:
Sharr Khan said:
Alexander Courage

Since we've mentioned the Trek theme. Courage's remark about how Gene "got his hands on the song", was interesting and brought something up I'd never knew. Gene wanted to hear more of the "Girl".

I'd backtrack and watch the whole thing, this part is connected to Star Trek though.

I hope they overtly reference the theme in Trek XI.

Sharr

Didn't know about the "girl" thing, either.

Gotta think at least the fanfare from the theme will be used. Dontcha? Many of the other movies used it.

But perhaps over the closing credits someone may actually sing the lyrics to the theme for the first time. "Beyond, the rim of starlight...." Just to make sure there's a few extra royalties for the Roddenberry estate. ;)
Does anyone but me remember the "other fanfare" used in TOS?

Anyone? Buehler? Buehler?

We all know the "Starfleet fanfare" that every show but TMP has had at some point... the opening fanfare from the classic credits sequence. And we all know the main theme from the original series. But I'm thinking of the other fanfare... "Kirk's Command"... written by Fred Steiner. It was often heard over the opening sequences showing the Enterprise cruising in space, or in orbit.

The other fanfare is for ALL Star Trek... but this one is specific to Jim Kirk. That's why I really... REALLY... want to hear it in this flick.

If anyone's got the Varese Saraband classic Trek soundtracks... find Volume 1 (The one with "Charlie X" on it) or just go back and rewatch Charlie X, for that matter. Play track #3. It opens with one of a half-dozen times in the series that this was reused in newly-composed music (and of course, these clips got reused throughout the series).

I WANT to hear this... I really want to. It would just make the film FEEL so much more authentic to me. ;)
 
xortex said:
There's another thread somewhere that discusses this very issue. I'm going to find it.

Well the problem with it now is that its too full of formulae. We have the crew-mix formula, the formula for technical problems (how many times can the holodeck try to kill you before you say Smurf it and play Xbox insted?), a standard solutions toolbox (use the transporters, reverse the polarity, use the deflector dish, Vulcan mindmeld (or attach a wire to data's usb port), etc.), standard aliens -- to the point where even the alien designs have gotten fairly predictable. Latex foreheads must be cheap, 'cause that's about all that happens.

What they need to do is let go of the formulas and the standard approach. It's cheaper and easier to make everything on an assembly line, but there's no quality. Past the age of maybe six, you don't seek out fast food, you look for good stuff, something beyond the ordinary.

It is conceivable that a long time ago a certain martial artist discovered some partial truth. During his lifetime, the man resisted the temptation to organize this partial truth, although this is a common tendency in a man's search for security and certainty in life. After his death, his students took "his" hypotheses, "his" postulates, "his" method and turned them into law. Impressive creeds were then invented, solemn reinforcing ceremonies prescribed, rigid philosophy and patterns formulated, and son on, until finally an institution was erected. So, what originated as one man's intuition of some sort of personal fluidity has been transformed into solidified, fixed knowledge, complete with organized classified responses presented in a logical order. In so doing, the well-meaning, loyal followers have not only made this knowledge a holy shrine, but also a tomb in which they have buried the founder's wisdom.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.platt/liberate.html

honestly, I think Lee is somewhat a genius himself, though I think he borrowed a bit from eastern philosophy.

But I think that the problem is the same as what Lee identified in Karate. At first, when Trek started, there were no formulas. They didn't start with [Brash Captain], [Logical Alien], and [Moralist Doctor]. They started with characters, tried to make them interesting in their own right. They didn't have a standard set of solutions either. One week, you kick the alien's ass, next week you might negotiate, and after that, you might logic a computer to death, there was even one ep where they stunned gangsters. It wasn't predictable because there wasn't a standard approach to solving the problems.

So the solution is to throw away the formulas. Not a reboot. Rebooting or not rebooting is a different question -- probably more like choosing uniform colors. If you aren't playing well, nobody cares. If the Yankees are winning every game they play, nobody would care if they showed up wearing pink tutus. But nobody would watch the A's even if they had the most bad-ass uniforms possible. It's packaging.
 
What they need to do is let go of the formulas and the standard approach.

Bingo! Trek has become so much "Paint by the numbers" it has become dull...

That tells me the more the newest incarnation pisses off the existing (small) fanbase the better it will be.

Sharr
 
Well, a bad movie would piss off the fans just as badly. If the team can't tell a good story, and they reboot to piss of the fanbase, who's left?
 
BalthierTheGreat said:
Well, a bad movie would piss off the fans just as badly. If the team can't tell a good story, and they reboot to piss of the fanbase, who's left?

Well so far a "bad" series, and a couple less then impressive movies have pretty much dwindled things down. There's no point in being beholden to a small group of vocal people who post at online forums. That is there've already been a bad movie or two... yet people still argue at a Trek forum. If the franchise can endure "Nemesis" it can endure this and this might break its rut.

The key here is to tell the story that *they want to tell* and make it enjoyable for as many people (none Trek fans or at least the casual observer) as possible - that will make new fans regardless of what old fans might want to think.

Potential Wrath of Star Trek fans though shouldn't be a consideration.

Sharr
 
Sharr Khan said:
BalthierTheGreat said:
Well, a bad movie would piss off the fans just as badly. If the team can't tell a good story, and they reboot to piss of the fanbase, who's left?

Well so far a "bad" series, and a couple less then impressive movies have pretty much dwindled things down. There's no point in being beholden to a small group of vocal people who post at online forums. That is there've already been a bad movie or two... yet people still argue at a Trek forum. If the franchise can endure "Nemesis" it can endure this and this might break its rut.

Enterprise is actually better than Crusade. I like 'em both, but Crusade always felt like a B5 version of Startrek, and the universe just didn't work for that kind of story.

At least Enterprise worked. I didn't like the tourgiude Vulcans, but other than that, it's not aweful. Aweful, honestly is neo-Buck Rogers.

The key here is to tell the story that *they want to tell* and make it enjoyable for as many people (none Trek fans or at least the casual observer) as possible - that will make new fans regardless of what old fans might want to think.

I don't think that's the key. The key is to make a movie that ordinary people want to watch. I don't know if they'll deliver.

But pissing off Trekkies and making a good movie are too different things.

I'm sure Nemisis was the story ... someody wanted to tell. It pissed of the fanboys, but it was a bad movie. Nobody wanted to see it.

Potential Wrath of Star Trek fans though shouldn't be a consideration.

Sharr

[/QUOTE]
 
I don't think that's the key. The key is to make a movie that ordinary people want to watch. I don't know if they'll deliver.

Then they shouldn't write or make the film based on Trekfandoms expectations of what a Trek movie should be.

But pissing off Trekkies and making a good movie are too different things.

I think that all depends. A good movie, one that follows the rules of drama and good storytelling can also at the same time annoy Trekfans yet be good Star Trek as well as a good movie.

Personally I don't think Trek is "specialized science fiction" there is no right way to make a Trek movie good - but first and foremost to focus on making it a good movie and or tv show, that its Star Trek is almost incidental. Way before TNG came about GR used to realize this, he wanted to tell stories he couldn't tell without the "cover" of scifi.

Oh the only "nerd" with any substantial power owns Microsoft.

Sharr
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top