Shatnertage's Mostly-1st-Time Watch Thread
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DS9 had Tribunal, and Dax.
Voyager had some, I have a vague recollection about Torres being charged with having violent thoughts, or something, in an episode. And then the episode where a Q wanted to die. I think that was were I officially got burnt out of Trek courtroom dramas. Didn't a later V'ger episode have some copyright trial with the Doctor over a holonovel he wrote? I know I'm not very specific but I saw every episode of Voyager, pretty much when they first aired, and have no desire to watch any of them again.
But as far as TOS, TNG and DS9 there aren't any bad courtroom dramas. Measure of a Man and Drumhead are among my favourite TNG episodes.
Voyager had some, I have a vague recollection about Torres being charged with having violent thoughts, or something, in an episode. And then the episode where a Q wanted to die. I think that was were I officially got burnt out of Trek courtroom dramas. Didn't a later V'ger episode have some copyright trial with the Doctor over a holonovel he wrote? I know I'm not very specific but I saw every episode of Voyager, pretty much when they first aired, and have no desire to watch any of them again.
But as far as TOS, TNG and DS9 there aren't any bad courtroom dramas. Measure of a Man and Drumhead are among my favourite TNG episodes.
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I'm a Worf fan and I didn't even like this episode. I don't think I've seen it again since it first aired way back when. I thought the looking in the camera thing was creepy, a little too jarring. It was like someone learned a new trick in film school and wanted to try it out.
Though it was interesting to see Ch'Pak, A Klingon who does something other than be a warrior. After all, how could Klingons have developed a warp capable society if no one did anything other than fight all the time? There have got to be more Klingon lawyers, doctors, scientists, teachers, engineers, etc. out there.
Though it was interesting to see Ch'Pak, A Klingon who does something other than be a warrior. After all, how could Klingons have developed a warp capable society if no one did anything other than fight all the time? There have got to be more Klingon lawyers, doctors, scientists, teachers, engineers, etc. out there.
Admit it, you asked for it.Admiral Shran said:
Was that directed partly at me? I was only having a laugh, and Shatnertage was the only one who said anything about them in the first place. If it makes you feel better, there won't be any threadbombs (or any talk about ponies from me for that matter), unless ponies are specifically mentioned.
Admit it, you asked for it.Admiral Shran said:
Was that directed partly at me? I was only having a laugh, and Shatnertage was the only one who said anything about them in the first place. If it makes you feel better, there won't be any threadbombs (or any talk about ponies from me for that matter), unless ponies are specifically mentioned.
It wasn't intended to be directed, partly or otherwise, to anybody at all. I have no strong feelings one way or the other about ponies. I was tempted to say "I like ponies," instead, for no particular reason I said fuck 'em. If you want to threadbomb with ponies or, use any other internet meme, like killing something with fire or taking an arrow in the knee, feel free, it could make me lol. Or at least quietly chuckle with slight amusement, but qcwsa doesn't quite type out very well.
Indeed. Wasn't their a Klingon scientist in "The Drumhead?" And, of course, there was the Klingon ambassador and his staff in the fourth and sixth movies. I can't think of any others at the moment (who appeared prior to "Rules of Engagement;" there were several others since).
^ We kind of had a laugh at the thought of the Klingon attorney. I don't know why, but it's funny to me that they don't have accountants but have lawyers.
I generally don't like CourtTrek because it's tedious and makes up the law part as its goes along. SciFi in general has a problem with this--look no further than Trial of a Time Lord for more evidence. But this one, for whatever reason, I actually like. Strangely enough, I just saw an episode of Wonder Pets where the pets broke the fourth wall, and I didn't like it.
MrJ brings up a very good point about Sisko's speech, which I too thought was an odd one. Not having served in the military I can't speak with any authority, but it would seem to me that you'd want to train commanders to size up a situation, make a decision, and follow it through without vacillating too much. Sisko's directive to Worf seems to suggest that Starfleet wants them to consider all of the options first, which seems like it's going to lose Starfleet some battles. I can understand being flexible in your decision-making, but it seems like Sisko's opening the door to a lot of second-guessing.
I think part of the problem is that the situation was so contrived. I would have done exactly what Worf had done in those circumstances, and it turns out we'd be right, because there really wasn't a civilian ship decloaking in the middle of a firefight. Worf's strategy was completely sound. So what's he learn? Don't trust his instincts? If he can't trust his instincts, why's he commanding a ship?
MA says that they based this on the Vincennes incident, and they could have made it a closer parallel by making it a less clear-cut thing. What if the Defiant's sensors had been knocked out and they just fired on sight at a plain old decloaked ship after being unable to ID it? That would be a real dilemma. But then Worf could potentially be a murderer, and I couldn't see them hanging that on a series regular.
At the very least this episode raises some questions.
I know that "Hard Time" is next up in the queue, and I feel like I'm cheating because I've seen it before. Oh well, I guess it's time to torture O'Brien again.
I generally don't like CourtTrek because it's tedious and makes up the law part as its goes along. SciFi in general has a problem with this--look no further than Trial of a Time Lord for more evidence. But this one, for whatever reason, I actually like. Strangely enough, I just saw an episode of Wonder Pets where the pets broke the fourth wall, and I didn't like it.
MrJ brings up a very good point about Sisko's speech, which I too thought was an odd one. Not having served in the military I can't speak with any authority, but it would seem to me that you'd want to train commanders to size up a situation, make a decision, and follow it through without vacillating too much. Sisko's directive to Worf seems to suggest that Starfleet wants them to consider all of the options first, which seems like it's going to lose Starfleet some battles. I can understand being flexible in your decision-making, but it seems like Sisko's opening the door to a lot of second-guessing.
I think part of the problem is that the situation was so contrived. I would have done exactly what Worf had done in those circumstances, and it turns out we'd be right, because there really wasn't a civilian ship decloaking in the middle of a firefight. Worf's strategy was completely sound. So what's he learn? Don't trust his instincts? If he can't trust his instincts, why's he commanding a ship?
MA says that they based this on the Vincennes incident, and they could have made it a closer parallel by making it a less clear-cut thing. What if the Defiant's sensors had been knocked out and they just fired on sight at a plain old decloaked ship after being unable to ID it? That would be a real dilemma. But then Worf could potentially be a murderer, and I couldn't see them hanging that on a series regular.
At the very least this episode raises some questions.
I know that "Hard Time" is next up in the queue, and I feel like I'm cheating because I've seen it before. Oh well, I guess it's time to torture O'Brien again.
And just like that, I've done 42 minutes of...
"Hard Time"
I knew the twist here so I wasn't necessarily in suspense, but I enjoyed the episode anyway. The guy who played Ee'char (not Icheb) did a very good job, even though he sounded a lot like Owen Wilson. And they certainly did torture O'Brien. Am I right in thinking that this will never be referenced again and does not in the slightest influence the character?
Here's a quibbly bit: Sisko passes the buck. When he relieves O'Brien and O'Brien complains, he says words to the effect of, "Hey, I'm with you buddy, but Bashir's declared you unfit for duty so my hands are tied." Naturally O'Brien goes right ahead and confronts Bashir about it. I'd say that's lousy management. The buck should stop with Sisko, and it seems unprofessional to kick it back down the chain of command like that. Particularly since O'Brien is clearly unhinged, and not even close to being fit for duty.
Once you can accept the fact that a guy would walk out of a situation as traumatic as O'Brien's and pick up his life again, I guess this episode makes sense. But even when it doesn't make sense, it's OK to watch because of the good performances. At least they didn't put him on trial again.
"Hard Time"
I knew the twist here so I wasn't necessarily in suspense, but I enjoyed the episode anyway. The guy who played Ee'char (not Icheb) did a very good job, even though he sounded a lot like Owen Wilson. And they certainly did torture O'Brien. Am I right in thinking that this will never be referenced again and does not in the slightest influence the character?
Here's a quibbly bit: Sisko passes the buck. When he relieves O'Brien and O'Brien complains, he says words to the effect of, "Hey, I'm with you buddy, but Bashir's declared you unfit for duty so my hands are tied." Naturally O'Brien goes right ahead and confronts Bashir about it. I'd say that's lousy management. The buck should stop with Sisko, and it seems unprofessional to kick it back down the chain of command like that. Particularly since O'Brien is clearly unhinged, and not even close to being fit for duty.
Once you can accept the fact that a guy would walk out of a situation as traumatic as O'Brien's and pick up his life again, I guess this episode makes sense. But even when it doesn't make sense, it's OK to watch because of the good performances. At least they didn't put him on trial again.
I did not view that scene that way at all. Sisko is not the medical professional so he is admittedly not qualified to make the complex decision on his own . I think the whole point was to send O'Brien back to Bashir or the counselor Telnori (sp?). In O'Brien's state, it would have done no good for Sisko to escalate the matter by telling him how unhinged he appears to be. The "I'm with you buddy" technique works fine for this particular situation, this way O'Brien doesn't feel like everyone's turned against him.
Yeah, but Sisko's the station commander. It's his responsibility in the end. All he'd have to say was, "It's my decision, end of story." Then O'Brien could go gripe to Keiko about how unfair it all was. If they're playing good cop/bad cop, Sisko has to be the bad cop. Otherwise, he's putting his own popularity first. Those four pips are supposed to mean he's the one who has to act like a dick...when someone has to act like a dick.
Gotta disagree with you there, not on the episode - it's awesome, one of DS9's best - but on Sisko passing the buck. Yes, he's the station commander, but on medical issues, the buck does not stop with him. It stops with Bashir. As the Chief Medical Officer, not even Sisko can overrule his judgment on a case like this.
If anyone is passing the buck, it's Bashir. He should have been the one to tell O'Brien that he was unfit for duty. Instead he had Sisko do it for him - probably because he didn't want to harm the friendship (which means he's the one putting his popularity first), but more likely that he thought that he could use the prestige of Sisko's rank and position to his favor in convincing O'Brien.
Sisko does the right thing. He tells the Chief that the law has been laid down, and that he's abiding by it, despite the fact that he knows it won't make O'Brien happy.
If anyone is passing the buck, it's Bashir. He should have been the one to tell O'Brien that he was unfit for duty. Instead he had Sisko do it for him - probably because he didn't want to harm the friendship (which means he's the one putting his popularity first), but more likely that he thought that he could use the prestige of Sisko's rank and position to his favor in convincing O'Brien.
Sisko does the right thing. He tells the Chief that the law has been laid down, and that he's abiding by it, despite the fact that he knows it won't make O'Brien happy.
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Exactly, CMO outranks the Captain when it comes to medical issues.
And I've come crashing back with...
"Shattered Mirror"
I've had a lot of other stuff going, including revising one of my books for a second edition, that has pushed watching DS9 to the side. But I figure that all work and no play blah blah blah, so I decided to ease back into the show with a mirror universe episode. And wow.
I liked the scene with Jake, Odo, and Quark at the beginning, which is completely "true." Even though Jake's no longer a young punk getting into mischief, his first reaction to Odo is as if he is. And they both miss Nog, as does Quark. From a practical standpoint, you get the actors into the episode even though their characters aren't in the MU. But it was all very believable character stuff.
Then things take a hard right turn into crazyland. Poor Jake, who is creatively stumped and missing his friend, heads to his nice, comforting home. He walks in and sees his dead mother sitting on the couch, talking to his dad.
Talk about a mindfuck.
And by the time we come back from the credits (SPOILER ALERT: they're still working on that upper pylon), everyone's chatting away like it's the most natural thing in the world, with all the emotion of a cookie exchange. And any claim to psychological realism goes right out the window.
Imagine you're in that same situation. What would your reaction be? I know mine wouldn't be to calmly deliver exposition about the politics of the Mirror Universe.
And the grinning. They wont. stop. smiling. Not one, but three Crazy Sisko smiles. Seriously. Rewatch that scene. Look at those smiles and tell me they're not all stark raving mad. Clearly this is a more subtle performance than I expected. They do understand the emotional impact of this meeting, and it's driven them all completely insane. Which they cover for by smiling. A lot.
And then Sisko leaves his only his, his only link to his dead wife (you know, Jake's a little like the Biblical Jacob's son Benjamin) with a woman who he's deceived once and who just happens to come from that alternate reality where everyone is both bisexual and evil. Not that there's anything wrong about that, and we'll talk more about that later.
This is the man that Starfleet tapped to be the head of its security when Earth was facing its biggest threat since...the Borg. Or maybe the whales from ST IV. And he leaves his vulnerable son with a woman who he has no reason to trust.
So naturally she kidnaps him, leaving behind the device that makes it easy for people to just slip from one universe to the other.
If they can get back and forth so easily, why not think big? Figure out a way to get a Galaxy class ship over there. Or two. Or three. That would end the war pretty quickly, if the Defiant alone is a game-changer. But I digress.
So Sisko has to work with Smiley to get the Evil Defiant up and running before the Regent shows up to reclaim the station. The plot sounds a little familiar.
And we see that Evil Bashir...isn't really that scary, even though he's dangerously close to sporting a mullet. They should have given him a mullet and had him go full-on Toby Keith.
Evil Dax, on the other hand, has a great hairdo. It's much better than real Dax's hair, and I wish they'd have let her wear her hair like this as the real character. And we get reminded that her and Sisko did the nasty last time he was in the MU. Which again is all sorts of strange because she's not just some romance of the week, she's the evil version of his best friend for the past twenty years. Again, I'm seeing some psychological issues here that, apparently, the writers aren't, because Sisko just gives a "yeah, I hit that" look and that's the end of that. Sisko got slapped twice, and we're not even that deep into the episode.
Meanwhile, Kira's been captured. Evil Kira has a slightly S&M outfit with a princess headband, but other than that she looks a lot like Real Kira--no special hairstyling that I can see. And, as she reminds us, she's bisexual. Edgy!
Speaking of S&M, we finally get to see Garak. Is he in a taut psychological thriller of an episode, letting us guess where his loyalties lie? No, he's wearing a collar and chain and is apparently Worf's pet. And we now get a heavy detour into the Mirror Universe as it is strongly implied that both Garak and Worf are also bisexual. Credit to the actors to making it a fun scene. "Pleasing the Intendant," indeed. Which, it occurs to me, would make a serviceable euphemism for masturbation. You can never have too many of those. But again, I digress.
What was the point of making everyone in the Evil Universe bisexual? Does that mean that bisexual=evil? I can't believe that they actually think so, so I'm guessing it's just a way to introduce edgy elements in the show without having to really address them. It's one thing for Evil Worf and Garak to have a love-hate thing going on. It'd be another thing to see Real Garak doing the walk of shame from Real Worf's quarters after a hot and heavy "training program" that went too far.
I loved Michael Dorn as the Regent. He had Worf's aggression, but not his stuffiness. Made for an interesting character.
And in the end Nog dies silently after a single shot, while Jennifer Sisko dies after a long interval in which she can have meaningful semi-conscious interactions following a single shot from the same weapon.
I'm really torn about "Shattered Mirror." From a plot standpoint, it makes no sense. Yet some of the performances were good. Double yet, I wish they'd incorporate these elements into the actual characters, since it would have made the show more interesting.
"Shattered Mirror"
I've had a lot of other stuff going, including revising one of my books for a second edition, that has pushed watching DS9 to the side. But I figure that all work and no play blah blah blah, so I decided to ease back into the show with a mirror universe episode. And wow.
I liked the scene with Jake, Odo, and Quark at the beginning, which is completely "true." Even though Jake's no longer a young punk getting into mischief, his first reaction to Odo is as if he is. And they both miss Nog, as does Quark. From a practical standpoint, you get the actors into the episode even though their characters aren't in the MU. But it was all very believable character stuff.
Then things take a hard right turn into crazyland. Poor Jake, who is creatively stumped and missing his friend, heads to his nice, comforting home. He walks in and sees his dead mother sitting on the couch, talking to his dad.
Talk about a mindfuck.
And by the time we come back from the credits (SPOILER ALERT: they're still working on that upper pylon), everyone's chatting away like it's the most natural thing in the world, with all the emotion of a cookie exchange. And any claim to psychological realism goes right out the window.
Imagine you're in that same situation. What would your reaction be? I know mine wouldn't be to calmly deliver exposition about the politics of the Mirror Universe.
And the grinning. They wont. stop. smiling. Not one, but three Crazy Sisko smiles. Seriously. Rewatch that scene. Look at those smiles and tell me they're not all stark raving mad. Clearly this is a more subtle performance than I expected. They do understand the emotional impact of this meeting, and it's driven them all completely insane. Which they cover for by smiling. A lot.
And then Sisko leaves his only his, his only link to his dead wife (you know, Jake's a little like the Biblical Jacob's son Benjamin) with a woman who he's deceived once and who just happens to come from that alternate reality where everyone is both bisexual and evil. Not that there's anything wrong about that, and we'll talk more about that later.
This is the man that Starfleet tapped to be the head of its security when Earth was facing its biggest threat since...the Borg. Or maybe the whales from ST IV. And he leaves his vulnerable son with a woman who he has no reason to trust.
So naturally she kidnaps him, leaving behind the device that makes it easy for people to just slip from one universe to the other.
If they can get back and forth so easily, why not think big? Figure out a way to get a Galaxy class ship over there. Or two. Or three. That would end the war pretty quickly, if the Defiant alone is a game-changer. But I digress.
So Sisko has to work with Smiley to get the Evil Defiant up and running before the Regent shows up to reclaim the station. The plot sounds a little familiar.
And we see that Evil Bashir...isn't really that scary, even though he's dangerously close to sporting a mullet. They should have given him a mullet and had him go full-on Toby Keith.
Evil Dax, on the other hand, has a great hairdo. It's much better than real Dax's hair, and I wish they'd have let her wear her hair like this as the real character. And we get reminded that her and Sisko did the nasty last time he was in the MU. Which again is all sorts of strange because she's not just some romance of the week, she's the evil version of his best friend for the past twenty years. Again, I'm seeing some psychological issues here that, apparently, the writers aren't, because Sisko just gives a "yeah, I hit that" look and that's the end of that. Sisko got slapped twice, and we're not even that deep into the episode.
Meanwhile, Kira's been captured. Evil Kira has a slightly S&M outfit with a princess headband, but other than that she looks a lot like Real Kira--no special hairstyling that I can see. And, as she reminds us, she's bisexual. Edgy!
Speaking of S&M, we finally get to see Garak. Is he in a taut psychological thriller of an episode, letting us guess where his loyalties lie? No, he's wearing a collar and chain and is apparently Worf's pet. And we now get a heavy detour into the Mirror Universe as it is strongly implied that both Garak and Worf are also bisexual. Credit to the actors to making it a fun scene. "Pleasing the Intendant," indeed. Which, it occurs to me, would make a serviceable euphemism for masturbation. You can never have too many of those. But again, I digress.
What was the point of making everyone in the Evil Universe bisexual? Does that mean that bisexual=evil? I can't believe that they actually think so, so I'm guessing it's just a way to introduce edgy elements in the show without having to really address them. It's one thing for Evil Worf and Garak to have a love-hate thing going on. It'd be another thing to see Real Garak doing the walk of shame from Real Worf's quarters after a hot and heavy "training program" that went too far.
I loved Michael Dorn as the Regent. He had Worf's aggression, but not his stuffiness. Made for an interesting character.
And in the end Nog dies silently after a single shot, while Jennifer Sisko dies after a long interval in which she can have meaningful semi-conscious interactions following a single shot from the same weapon.
I'm really torn about "Shattered Mirror." From a plot standpoint, it makes no sense. Yet some of the performances were good. Double yet, I wish they'd incorporate these elements into the actual characters, since it would have made the show more interesting.
fantastic review ^
in fact the last two reviews have brought up a significant point on what the true emotional and psychological impact would be on the featured characters. although if i walked into a room and found my best friend was alive and well, i dont know exactly what my reaction would be.
in fact the last two reviews have brought up a significant point on what the true emotional and psychological impact would be on the featured characters. although if i walked into a room and found my best friend was alive and well, i dont know exactly what my reaction would be.
Great review, I remember thinking a lot if the same things when I first saw this one. And I just about fell out of my chair laughing at your "Garak walk of shame" comment.
I thought the way the MU treated sexuality was really poor, and degrading towards homosexuals--using homosexuality for titillation and as a sign of evil. Definitely one of my reasons to dislike the MU.
I've never really understood the hate that the Mirror Universe episodes get. Yes, they're ridiculous, but usually in an generally pleasing kind of way. Shattered Mirror is probably the worst of the lot, but I think it's still a fairly average episode. It's certainly nowhere near the dregs of DS9.
I don't know, I think
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