Shatnertage's Mostly-1st-Time Watch Thread

[Worf'sParmach]

So is it safe to talk re-watch again?

Last night I picked it up again, and things went bad. There was another phenomenal--phenomenal--scene with Worf and Kurn, the one where Kurn says he wishes they'd grown up together. Then things get stupid. Worf has Bashir wipe Kurn's memory, change his features, and change his DNA, and they give him a new identity.

I don't even know where to start with how wrong that is. The operation is entirely without Kurn's consent, which surely violates medical ethics. If a Cardassian doctor performed this procedure during the operation on someone like Kira to make her "forget" she was a member of the resistance, would we think it was OK? And they haven't really solved Kurn's problems; they've just killed him. He's now a man with no memory of his past whatsoever, which is a kind of living hell, I'm sure. Plus, what about all those retainers of the House of Mogh? They don't have any chance of leading normal lives now, and not even the closure of knowing Kurn is dead.

I totally agree with you, this episode was a good premise but the resolution sucked. How in the world did a Starfleet Officer (Jadzia) come up with an idea like this and think it was okay? She should have kept her nose out of it and let Worf kill him in the first place. And how in the world did a Starfleet Doctor even think it was ethical to perform such an operation? And for someone so bent on honor, death and all that, Worf had to know that this doesn't cover Rodek in the afterlife. He would still have to face his dishonor in StoVoKor as Kurn. Or did Worf blow up some military installation for him so he'd be all "honored up?"

And while I'm ranting, how in the world did Worf think he was going to get away with killing Kurn on DS9 in the first place? When he killed Duras in TNG's "Reunion" he went onto a Klingon ship to do it (and he still got in trouble). What was he planning to do with the body? When Odo asks, "Hey Worf, what happened to your brother that came aboard a few days ago?" I doubt "I killed him, but it's all good because now he has his honor," would go over well.

Here's a super fannish nit pick: in TNG's "Firstborn" Kimtar tells Alexander that Kurn and his cousins want to meet him, implying that Kurn has a family back on the Homeworld. What would have become of them after all this?

I think the idea of "So what happens to Kurn" is a good one, but the way they chose to handle it was very poor.

 

[BlueStuff]

I'm just hoping that Shatnertage gets around to reviewing Accession before hostilities break out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWaguilvSrY

 

[Shatnertage]

It's been a very tough few days--there's about 10 Misc. threads worth of things I could discuss if I wanted to go that route.

Suffice it to say that the roughest stretch is hopefully behind me and I can start talking DS9 again soon.

 

[Athena28]

And now we can talk about HONOR with...

"The Sons of Mogh"

The possible tedium of a Klingon episode--which might feature lots of pontificating about honor--is offset by the knowledge that Tony Todd is going to be in this. He's the reason why "Sins of the Father" is a great episode, and I don't think it's a coincidence that "Sins" takes a nosedive once he's out of the picture and the focus shifts to Picard. He was great in Voyager as the Hirogen guy, too...

Tony Todd is so wonderful. The story is good. Worf & Dax are fun...and then that dreadful conclusion. How disappointing.

 

[Shatnertage]

At last, I'm back with...

"Accession"

The Netflix blurb was basically the a synopsis of the teaser, which was fun. A guy named Vedek Porta shows up with a young couple to get the blessings of the Emissary. He does a passable job reciting the appropriate blessing. I kind of wish he'd burst into "Hello Young Lovers" afterward:



I started with Sinatra's version, but decided to switch to the more upbeat Bobby Darin performance, recorded about a mile away from where I'm sitting now.

Anyway, The Sisko does not like being the Emissary.

Until some other guy shows up and says he's the Emissary, that is. And he's a poet, too. But he's also a fundamentalist of sorts, looking to lead Bajor straight back to the 21st century. Or 22nd century. I can never get that straight.

I was very excited to see Camile Saviola's name in the credits. I was less excited that I couldn't, for the life of me, remember Kai Opaka's name. And the first time she showed up, I was majorly pissed that she didn't get to speak more than two lines--although she repeated the first one a few times.

The B-story of Keiko returning wasn't as bad as I feared. She actually turned out to be a lot nicer to Miles than I thought she would. And her willingness to set Miles go play on the holodeck with Julian at the end instead of pouting around their quarters was appropriate.

During Dax and Sisko's scene together, it occurred to me that they don't really have great chemistry together. The actors just seem on such totally different pages, it's kind of hard to reconcile them before. I've talked about this before. Sisko just comes off as very intense, and for some reason Dax's more relaxed style doesn't mesh with his the way that, say, Quark's does. But she works well with Worf, since he's so ponderously serious so much of the time. Does that make sense?

I actually liked what Avery Brooks did with Sisko here. I suddenly understand a little bit of the Crazy Sisko mannerisms. This is a man who, fundamentally, doesn't know who he is. Father? Starfleet officer? Builder? Religious icon? It makes more sense to me that he's so emotionally disconnected from his surroundings.

Onto the story itself: the Clash of the Emissaries. I didn't know that you could resign from Emissary-hood, but it's nothing that conflicts with what we've already been told. Odo had some good objections to Kira. But I would think he'd still be sulking over her banging Shakaar. Maybe he's just being passive aggressive.

There's a rift in the lute when Akorem Laan announces he's bringing back the d'jarras, Bajor's incredibly specific caste system. But that gets me thinking--and I'm no expert on Bajoran culture, so feel free to point out any misconceptions--that this is the first we've heard of this caste system. I thought the Bajorans were supposed to be spiritual, tolerant, generally cool people before the Cardassians showed up. The caste system makes them seem anything but. And the idea of going back to it...suffice it to say that I'm surprised there wasn't more of an uproar back on Bajor. It's not realistic to me that the entire planet would consent to going back to the jobs their great-grandparents had. Kira's a good example of why you'd be losing many talented people that way.

But Kira goes along with it, just because? The Bajorans have the courage to fight back against armed invaders, but they can't tell a three hundred year-old poet to go pound sand?

Seriously, how much would it suck if someone traveled forward in time from 1750 or so and tried to tell us what to do with our lives?

And Vedek Porta murdering the guy, just because he was in a low caste and wanted to keep his current job? My msting of the show had Sisko looking at him and saying, "Now who's going to prepare him for burial, you asshole?"

The Bajorans do not come out of this one looking better.

But we get Sisko saying enough's enough, and into the wormhole he goes. Though, as my wife pointed out, they really should have sent along a 3rd party to make sure everything was kosher. What was to stop Sisko from pushing Akorem out the airlock, coming back, and saying, "he's with the prophets now?" Or vice-versa?

What would have been awesome would have been if Akorem did do that, and we get a cliffhanger ending. Then after an episode about the aftermath of Sisko's death, the Prophets send him back. But I guess they already had one Dead Sisko episode this season, and there's such a thing as going to the well once too often.

I liked the realization of the wormhole sequence.

And the ending, with Sisko embracing his role as Emissary, was good. So I definitely liked this one.

 

[Shatnertage]

Edited the post to fix something, lost Bobby Darin. Here he is in all his glory:

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv0zj53eK3I[/yt]

That would have been a great blessing for the young lovers in the tease.

 

[MrJ]

At last, I'm back with...

"Accession"


The B-story of Keiko returning wasn't as bad as I feared. She actually turned out to be a lot nicer to Miles than I thought she would. And her willingness to set Miles go play on the holodeck with Julian at the end instead of pouting around their quarters was appropriate.

An example that not even someone’s wife can come between one of the greatest bromances in Star Trek history.

During Dax and Sisko's scene together, it occurred to me that they don't really have great chemistry together. The actors just seem on such totally different pages, it's kind of hard to reconcile them before. I've talked about this before. Sisko just comes off as very intense, and for some reason Dax's more relaxed style doesn't mesh with his the way that, say, Quark's does. But she works well with Worf, since he's so ponderously serious so much of the time. Does that make sense?

Yeah, it does.

Curzon is so different than Jadzia is, I'm not sure if Sisko ever really differentiates between the two. One was his mentor, the other a subordinate, but both were his friend.

I actually liked what Avery Brooks did with Sisko here. I suddenly understand a little bit of the Crazy Sisko mannerisms. This is a man who, fundamentally, doesn't know who he is. Father? Starfleet officer? Builder? Religious icon? It makes more sense to me that he's so emotionally disconnected from his surroundings.

I have personally experienced, and seen in others, the dilemma that exists in people when they try to balance a Military career with a personal life. This is why this episode is considered part two in "the emissary trilogy". This is the episode where Sisko finally accepts his role as "The Sisko," more than just a Starfleet officer or father and a full on religious icon.

There's a rift in the lute when Akorem Laan announces he's bringing back the d'jarras, Bajor's incredibly specific caste system. But that gets me thinking--and I'm no expert on Bajoran culture, so feel free to point out any misconceptions--that this is the first we've heard of this caste system. I thought the Bajorans were supposed to be spiritual, tolerant, generally cool people before the Cardassians showed up. The caste system makes them seem anything but. And the idea of going back to it...suffice it to say that I'm surprised there wasn't more of an uproar back on Bajor. It's not realistic to me that the entire planet would consent to going back to the jobs their great-grandparents had. Kira's a good example of why you'd be losing many talented people that way.

The Bajorans might seem like they are a civilized, intelligent, spiritual people, and they are. They also had a strict cast system. That is not unusual with religions on Earth today. That might not make sense, but then again, believing in an invisible being in the sky, that can see everything you do, doesn't make sense either.

But Kira goes along with it, just because? The Bajorans have the courage to fight back against armed invaders, but they can't tell a three hundred year-old poet to go pound sand?

Seriously, how much would it suck if someone traveled forward in time from 1750 or so and tried to tell us what to do with our lives?

"That's the thing about faith. If you don't have it, you can't understand it. And if you do, no explanation is necessary."
Kira in The Accession

We are less spiritual, as a people, than the Bajorans are (in my opinion that's a good thing). So we would have no problem telling some poet from the 1750's to "pound sand". Where as the Bajoran "gods" are actual beings with real power that exist outside the space time continuum. So shit that is written in their version of their "Bible" is real, it actually happened and the prophecies that are prophesised will happen. Unlike the religious nonsense that some people believe on Earth today.

And Vedek Porta murdering the guy, just because he was in a low caste and wanted to keep his current job? My msting of the show had Sisko looking at him and saying, "Now who's going to prepare him for burial, you asshole?"

The Bajorans do not come out of this one looking better.

No they do not. The thing about DS9 is it shows that no one is perfect. Not even the Bajorans, with their "real" gods.

But we get Sisko saying enough's enough, and into the wormhole he goes. Though, as my wife pointed out, they really should have sent along a 3rd party to make sure everything was kosher. What was to stop Sisko from pushing Akorem out the airlock, coming back, and saying, "he's with the prophets now?" Or vice-versa?

"That's the thing about faith. If you don't have it, you can't understand it. And if you do, no explanation is necessary."
Kira in The Accession
　
Just like Mosses coming down the mountain with the 10 commandments. Or Joseph Smith writing the book of Mormon from gold plates that only he could see in a hat. Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.

What would have been awesome would have been if Akorem did do that, and we get a cliffhanger ending. Then after an episode about the aftermath of Sisko's death, the Prophets send him back. But I guess they already had one Dead Sisko episode this season, and there's such a thing as going to the well once too often.

Yup. No more dead Sisko episodes. From now on when someone dies they stay dead. Unless it is the mirror universe or a certain character played by Jeffrey Combs.

And the ending, with Sisko embracing his role as Emissary, was good. So I definitely liked this one.

The Sisko is of Bajor, after all.

 

[Sykonee]

Seriously, how much would it suck if someone traveled forward in time from 1750 or so and tried to tell us what to do with our lives?

If he was one of the Founding Fathers, I'd imagine the Tea Party would welcome him as a messiah.

 

[Admiral Shran]

Jeez, I could now go straight from a debate on capitalism vs. communism to a debate on religion. But I don't think I'll go there today.

I have personally experienced, and seen in others, the dilemma that exists in people when they try to balance a Military career with a personal life. This is why this episode is considered part two in "the emissary trilogy". This is the episode where Sisko finally accepts his role as "The Sisko," more than just a Starfleet officer or father and a full on religious icon.

I sort of see it like this as well. Sisko does know who he is as a person. It's just that he's had a lot of stuff thrown at him lately that he's having a hard time adjusting to. He was perfectly content with himself as a husband, father, Starfleet officer and a "builder." Then his wife was killed and that took a long time to get over. Then he was assigned to a position that he really didn't want. It took a long time to get over that and for him to see DS9 as his new home. Then he had the role of religious icon thrown onto him. It's taken the longest for him to adjust to that.

In the end, however, this episode shows that he is finally coming to terms with his role as the Emissary. That's why I really like this episode.

If he was one of the Founding Fathers, I'd imagine the Tea Party would welcome him as a messiah.

Depends on which Founding Father. If Alexander Hamilton turned up, I'd tell him to hit the f***ing road. Thomas Jefferson, on the other hand? Well, that's a different story.

 

[TheGodBen]

Jeez, I could now go straight from a debate on capitalism vs. communism to a debate on religion. But I don't think I'll go there today.

At this rate I'm half-expecting the next review to trigger a debate on abortion, and I don't even know how that's possible in an episode that serves as a dissection of legitimate combat tactics.

As for Sisko's multiple roles, that's why I prefer him over the other captains, because he's not just a captain. He's also a father, a religious icon, a mayor, a general, a lover, a communist, but he is not a porn star! (Wait, something went wrong with that sentence.)

 

[Shatnertage]

Sisko the porn star? With all those Crazy Sisko grins, I can only imagine the money shot visual.

The thing is, I completely understand where Kira's coming at with the faith. But if someone, even of my own religious persuasion (which should be fairly obvious this month) showed up from the 18th century and tried to turn back the clock, I wouldn't be on board. Come to think of it, there are plenty of ultra-orthodox folks who are already trying to live like they're in the 18th century, which kinds of proves my point. At least for me personally.

Interesting point about the Founding Fathers. I would guess that if any of the ones who owned slaves returned and tried to roll that clock back, we'd say no. Although in the past I've had more than one student try to argue with me that slavery was a good thing, so maybe I'm hopelessly naive. It's one thing to appreciate the ideas that the men and women of the past stood for that might inspire us today; it's another to try to recreate the world they lived in, which is in most ways much worse than the one we do today.

But we're not of Bajor. Unlike The Sisko.

I feel strange, with a long response to a previous post in a review post. That is not one of the...

"Rules of Engagement"

Read the blurb. Saw that Worf was on trial. Thought, "This is going to absolutely suck." Saw the tease, where he's in Odo's jail cell having a nightmare. Was not encouraged. When, after the credits, the show proper began with the admiral ringing a bell, I knew I was totally fucked.

As we watched the first act come to an end, I groaned to my wife, "there's no B-story! God help us." By the end of the second act, I was pleading for the third act to start with Odo doing something interesting. And it did.

But this was an interesting episode. On paper, I should have hated it. It's an example of CourtTrek, which is one of my least favorite Trek variants. Trek judicial proceedings are, to say the least, almost completely irregular. In this one, for example, they throw out all semblance of trying to determine the facts of the case and instead decide that this is going to be a trial to determine what's in Worf's heart--his mens rea, I believe the legal term is. And, pardon my language, it's a total clusterfuck.

But two things redeem the episode and make it one I'd watch again. The first is the bit where the actors look directly at the camera and speak during their "testimony," I was totally bored. That bit was unexpected and shook things up enough to make a completely illogical plot an entertaining story. I don't know why, but it made it a lot more watchable.

The second was the strength of the actors, particularly Avery Brooks, who again impressed me. Even though the thought of my boss representing me in a case where I could be extradited to certain death frankly frightens me, Brooks made it plausible that Sisko was a good advocate for Worf. There were definite shades of Picard in the TNG CourtTrek episodes (in a good way) and I sensed that Brooks was drawing up a deep well of cinematic trials.

Now I get to another reason why I liked this episode which has nothing to do with anyone involved. One of the things I do is expert witnessing in my field. Two days ago, I was deposed as an expert witness. If you've never had the experience, let me explain. Basically, you've got a guy sitting across from you who's getting paid a lot of money to make you seem like a stupid asshole. When you're done, you might wonder how you managed to tie your shoes that morning. If you've got a more combative personality, it's probably awesome, but when you tend to be a little more easy-going by nature, as I am, it's not a lot of fun.

So I felt a profound sense of empathy for Worf as Ch'Pak spent the entire episode trying not to demonstrate the facts of the case, but to prove that Worf was...a stupid asshole. I don't believe in violence as a means of settling problems so I don't agree with him beating the piss out of the opposing counsel, but I really felt for him, having to sit there while Ch'Pak kept on bagging on him.

Here's a question: why wouldn't O'Brien just say he would have done the same as Worf? I would have.

Anyway, that's my extremely subjective take on this episode. Having already broached politics and religion, hopefully this doesn't trigger an argument about ponies.

 

[defiantfan]

If he was one of the Founding Fathers, I'd imagine the Tea Party would welcome him as a messiah.[/QUOTE]

Hot damn! You just provided my family with many happy days of laughter.

As for Sisko's multiple roles, that's why I prefer him over the other captains, because he's not just a captain. He's also a father, a religious icon, a mayor, a general, a lover, a communist, but he is not a porn star! (Wait, something went wrong with that sentence.)

If he is a communist then why the heck did he keep Quark around?

 

[Admiral Shran]

^ I think TheGodBen was referring to an old Simpsons joke.

Rules of Engagement - the episode everyone thought Shatnertage would loathe, he ends up liking.

It's okay. It's got some interesting tricks, like talking directly into the camera. And Ch'Pak is a memorable character.

Having already broached politics and religion, hopefully this doesn't trigger an argument about ponies.

You fool! You've doomed us all now!

 

[Sykonee]

Rules of Engagement - the episode everyone thought Shatnertage would loathe, he ends up liking.

I actually had a feeling he'd enjoy it, just because it is rather different from typical CourtTrek.

 

[intrinsical]

Put me in the camp that thought Shatnertage would not like Rules of Engagement and the coming three episodes. As always, I hope to be proven wrong.

 

[JayOwl]

Anyway, that's my extremely subjective take on this episode. Having already broached politics and religion, hopefully this doesn't trigger an argument about ponies.

You fool! You've doomed us all now!

And you can all blame the good Admiral Shran here.

 

[Admiral Shran]

 

[MrJ]

Here's a question: why wouldn't O'Brien just say he would have done the same as Worf? I would have.

Perjury, that's why. If he honestly wouldn't have done what Worf did then he couldn't have said he would have, with out perjuring himself. Personally I would have done exactly what Worf did. I mean, really what are the chances of a cloaked Klingon civilian transport ship decloaking directly in front of a Starfleet warship, in the middle of a battle?
　
Hell, in Afghanistan we have shot Afghans for dialling cell phones when we drive by, or for digging a hole in a road. Just a few weeks ago Afghan insurgents used a boy about 8 or 10 years old as a suicide bomber at a wedding. For me, as a soldier, Sisko's speech to Worf at the end about how Starfleet never puts civilian lives at risk, even if it costs them their own lives, just seems... I don't know, it just doesn't seem right.
　
Ever since TOS we have seen very little remorse on the part of the heroes when Starfleet crewmen die. It almost seems like life in the 23rd and 24th centuries is cheap and Starfleet personnel are easily expendable. Much more expendable than soldiers in the civilized countries today.
　
Our real world Rules of Engagement are different than Starfleet's. Whatever the mission specific ROEs are, self defence is always the number one priority. If a soldier thinks his life, or the life of someone else, is in danger, lethal force is always authorized. The same goes for the police.




As for the episode itself, like most people I was pretty tired of the Star Trek courtroom drama episode by the time this episode aired. Star Trek had some good courtroom episodes and some not. So when I first heard that this was another one I wasn't exactly excited to see it, so I missed it.


But then again I missed most of the third and fourth seasons of DS9 when they first aired for real life commitments. Starting with season five I saw every episode the night it aired, even though it meant taping Voyager and watching it later (because where I lived Voyager and DS9 were shown at the same time on two different channels).


So some episodes like Rules of Engagement and Return to Grace I never saw until after the series finale after 1999. I never knew Dukat had a Klingon Bird of Prey until the beginning of the fifth season and I was like "how the hell did that happen?"


So when I first saw Rules of Engagement years after it originally aired I liked it, and I consider it to be one of the good courtroom episodes.

Anyway, that's my extremely subjective take on this episode. Having already broached politics and religion, hopefully this doesn't trigger an argument about ponies.

Fuck ponies.

 

[Harvey]

As for the episode itself, like most people I was pretty tired of the Star Trek courtroom drama episode by the time this episode aired. Star Trek had some good courtroom episodes and some not. So when I first heard that this was another one I wasn't exactly excited to see it, so I missed it.

How many had their been at this point?

For Star Trek, I remember the back-to-back court martial dramas, "Court Martial" and "The Menagerie."

For Star Trek: The Next Generation, I remember "A Matter of Perspective" and "The Drumhead."

None of those strike me as bad episodes, but how many others are there that I'm missing?

 

[DrCorby]

As for the episode itself, like most people I was pretty tired of the Star Trek courtroom drama episode by the time this episode aired. Star Trek had some good courtroom episodes and some not. So when I first heard that this was another one I wasn't exactly excited to see it, so I missed it.

How many had their been at this point?

For Star Trek, I remember the back-to-back court martial dramas, "Court Martial" and "The Menagerie."

For Star Trek: The Next Generation, I remember "A Matter of Perspective" and "The Drumhead."

None of those strike me as bad episodes, but how many others are there that I'm missing?

TNG's excellent second season "Measure of a Man". Another TOS courtmartial in "Turnabout Intruder". And not exactly a trial, but TOS showed a competency hearing for Kirk in "The Deadly Years".