SF and People of Color

[Bob The Skutter]

Or if you're an Asian female, you are present to be saved by the white...or even black hero...or to be the meek, obedient Asian girl. (Hoshi Sato from ENT? Keiko O'Brien until she came to DS9).

I think there needs to be more 'people of color' behind the scenes...

Have you heard Commentary! The Musical on the Dr. Horrible DVD? If not give "Nobody's Asian In The Movies " sung by Maurissa Tancharoen a listen.

 

[dragunzng]

OK...I'll say it... what about Avery Brooks, Cirroc Lofton and Penny Johnson from DS9? That was by far my favorite Trek/scifi show. Patrick Stewart is a great actor, but Brooks took his role to a whole new level with phenomenal performances! If it makes any difference, I am caucasian, but my liking a show isn't based on the casts' color, rather their abilities.

And yes... Tyler Perry needs to stop...LOL

Just wanted to say Brooks, at least as Sisko was a horrific actor. Half the time he was unintentionally funny. Great voice though. What if Keith David had been cast as Sisko?

 

[Gotham Central]

No one's mentioned Dr. Franklin from B5. On the other hand, I *really* liked that while there was great cultural and ethnic diversity on the bridge of B5 (a Jesuit, an Italian, a Russian Jew), they never made a big deal out of it. It wasn't a "see how morally superior our diversity is?" thing like it was on other shows.

I like the diversity of B5 myself...(and boy was their diversity!)

Personally, I think it was more realistic of how our future could possibly look...sans the alien races, of course.

I love B5, but, uh....no. The show may have been about as diverse as the United States, but not nearly as diverse as the entire world. In fact, the vibe on the show felt very much like "this is the future of *America*" rather than "this is the future of all of humanity" (not that Trek does it any better).

Really, if you were going to do a realistic portrayal of a distant future in which all of the Earth is united under a single banner, whites would be just a small fraction of the total population. I would think that Asians would be the most common racial group, but I'm not counting on a sci-fi show with a mostly Asian cast being commissioned any time soon.

This is what makes Firefly so unintentionally insulting. On some level they got it right in that Asian cultures are central to the presented universe. However, asian PEOPLE were noticeably absent. Its not that Asians are scarce or anything....Ridley Scott managed to find plenty to populate his 2019 LA back in the 80s.

Firefly did not even need to have a majority asian cast. There just should have been some SOMEWHERE.

 

[Base_Delta_Zero]

I don't particularly care what ethnicity the actors in my shows are as long as they can act and the stories they're telling are compelling. The largely all black + 1 retarded white guy cast shows on now and again are pretty horrible, so I don't watch them. A ton of the all white + 1 black/hispanic cast shows suck ass, too, and I don't watch them, either.

I have to wonder what the demographics are for the writers of all these programs. Are they all white? Evenly mixed? All non-white but just love writing about white people? I don't know.

I do know that I, being white, tend to write fiction about characters who are largely white. I do use black, Asian, Hispanic, Indian, etc. characters, but leave them to the supporting cast. I can write women as well as men (I grew up around a bunch), so that's not a problem.

It's not necessarily that I don't like writing other ethnicities, I just don't know a whole lot about the cultures, so most of the characters I do identify as various ethnicities tend to come off as no different than the white characters and I feel like I'm just hanging the ethnic label on them to say "See, I have diverse people in my universe!" It's probably because I'm going out of my way to avoid stereotyping them, so in fear of going too far with the characterization, I don't go anywhere at all.

My entire family, without exception, is white. I currently have 1 close Vietnamese friend, 1 Hawaiian and 2 Korean acquaintances. There wasn't a single non-white in my classes at college last semester. There's 1 black guy at work in another department who I rarely bump into. And sure, I interact with the whole range of races in my job at the airport, but that's seconds at a time in a controlled security environment.

I don't feel I have the knowledge-base to write authentically about ethnically diverse characters in a modern setting. World War II Europe, Imperial China, Medieval Japan, some far-future alien world? Yeah, I can give a decent accounting of myself. But now? Or extrapolating into the near future? I just sound like a white guy trying to sound like a black/Asian/hispanic guy and it pisses me off.

Perhaps, if the writers on these shows are anything like me, they face the same difficulty.

 

[JanineSal]

It's not necessarily that I don't like writing other ethnicities, I just don't know a whole lot about the cultures, so most of the characters I do identify as various ethnicities tend to come off as no different than the white characters and I feel like I'm just hanging the ethnic label on them to say "See, I have diverse people in my universe!"

Just write non-white characters as human beings with their own personality quirks. There is no one way to write a character of a certain ethnic background. Even people of a certain ethinc background are diverse in many ways. Just remember that.

 

[Hoshi_Mayweather]

Or if you're an Asian female, you are present to be saved by the white...or even black hero...or to be the meek, obedient Asian girl. (Hoshi Sato from ENT? Keiko O'Brien until she came to DS9).

I think there needs to be more 'people of color' behind the scenes...

Have you heard Commentary! The Musical on the Dr. Horrible DVD? If now give "Nobody's Asian In The Movies " sung by Maurissa Tancharoen.

Interesting...!

It's not necessarily that I don't like writing other ethnicities, I just don't know a whole lot about the cultures, so most of the characters I do identify as various ethnicities tend to come off as no different than the white characters and I feel like I'm just hanging the ethnic label on them to say "See, I have diverse people in my universe!"

Just write non-white characters as human beings with their own personality quirks. There is no one way to write a character of a certain ethnic background. Even people of a certain ethinc background are diverse in many ways. Just remember that.

Hear! Hear!

 

[Barbados Slim]

Exactly, Base Delta Zero. At the end of the day, we all have the same crazy personalities. The only thing to study up on is cultural backgrounds. You can make a character the same as you would write anyone, make the character Jewish but the only difference is you have to learn a little bit about Jewish faith, and that's only if it's relevent to the story.

Take a look at Danny Boyle's Sunshine. Diverse cast but they all have their own personality quirks that could be assigned to any ethnicity.

 

[Gotham Central]

Exactly, Base Delta Zero. At the end of the day, we all have the same crazy personalities. The only thing to study up on is cultural backgrounds. You can make a character the same as you would write anyone, make the character Jewish but the only difference is you have to learn a little bit about Jewish faith, and that's only if it's relevent to the story.

Take a look at Danny Boyle's Sunshine. Diverse cast but they all have their own personality quirks that could be assigned to any ethnicity.

Babylon 5 is a really good example of this. Was anything about either Dr. Kyle or Dr. Franklin particularly black? A better example was Cmdr. Ivanova. She was a Russian Jew. with the exception of having her light a minora ONCE and having her interact with a Rabbi, there was nothing unusually Russian or Jewish about her.


Think of it this way, there is no wrong way to write a person living in the future. As long as their portrayed believably, you should not have a problem. Feel free to make up your own unique cultures. What does a black man or woman who grew up in a Martian Colony act like? I'm black and I could not answer that. What about an Asian person who lived their entire life on a starship?

You are perfectly free to have them behave in any matter you see appropriate for their particular background. You need not feel constrained by their color or earth bound ethnicity.

 

[stj]

Most US television has problems with race. Even sitcoms. I think the last integrated sitcom was Mavis, which was canceled instead of nurtured. The black sitcoms have their token white characters, but really aren't they a sort of TV ghetto?

As for SF, the number of offwhite characters in Zion was distinctly offputting for some segment of the audiences I fear. Star Trek was quite good for its period, but none of its successors have done as well. The modern Klingons in particular have unsavory undertones. I don't know if you could call it racist---I mean, if something like that is racist what do you call Klansmen and neoNazis? But it surely isn't forward thinking, which is a damn shame for something that calls itself science fiction. But then, there's a lot of modern scifi that starts with the witless proposition that tomorrow will be like today.

White people in the future might be represented in numbers proportionate to their percentage of the population, you know. Most pictures of the future fail to conceive this simple possibility.

 

[Uncle Tobias]

Also, if I'm remembering right there *was* a British-Indian character(at least in looks/accent) in Atlantis, but he got killed off right before Ford. Then Carson got killed off too.

I assume you mean Dr. Grodin, who was supposed to be British yes. Craig Veroni is, however, actually Canadian but of South African descent.

oops, yeah that was who I meant, no offence intended with getting his descent wrong there

 

[RoJoHen]

I like the diversity of B5 myself...(and boy was their diversity!)

Personally, I think it was more realistic of how our future could possibly look...sans the alien races, of course.

I love B5, but, uh....no. The show may have been about as diverse as the United States, but not nearly as diverse as the entire world. In fact, the vibe on the show felt very much like "this is the future of *America*" rather than "this is the future of all of humanity" (not that Trek does it any better).

Really, if you were going to do a realistic portrayal of a distant future in which all of the Earth is united under a single banner, whites would be just a small fraction of the total population. I would think that Asians would be the most common racial group, but I'm not counting on a sci-fi show with a mostly Asian cast being commissioned any time soon.

This is what makes Firefly so unintentionally insulting. On some level they got it right in that Asian cultures are central to the presented universe. However, asian PEOPLE were noticeably absent. Its not that Asians are scarce or anything....Ridley Scott managed to find plenty to populate his 2019 LA back in the 80s.

Firefly did not even need to have a majority asian cast. There just should have been some SOMEWHERE.

I don't think "insulting" is the word I'd use.

And I'm pretty sure there were quite a few Asians walking around Persephone in pilot episode.

Maybe Asians managed to become an elite class (which would explain their influence), so they probably wouldn't have run into the Serenity crew very often.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

OK...I'll say it... what about Avery Brooks, Cirroc Lofton and Penny Johnson from DS9? That was by far my favorite Trek/scifi show. Patrick Stewart is a great actor, but Brooks took his role to a whole new level with phenomenal performances! If it makes any difference, I am caucasian, but my liking a show isn't based on the casts' color, rather their abilities.

And yes... Tyler Perry needs to stop...LOL

Just wanted to say Brooks, at least as Sisko was a horrific actor. Half the time he was unintentionally funny. Great voice though. What if Keith David had been cast as Sisko?

Or Tony Todd.

And whatever happened to Tim Russ! Now there's someone who needs a role in a decent sf series. That's the problem, I could type out a laundry list excellent actors of any race who need a good sf series, or any genre series. The problem, is those frakkin' series hardly exist.

I have to wonder what the demographics are for the writers of all these programs. Are they all white?

Buncha white males is my guess. I'm picturing a passel of pasty-white balding middle age guys with pony tails who think they're a lot cooler than they actually are.

As for SF, the number of offwhite characters in Zion was distinctly offputting for some segment of the audiences I fear.

The fact that the Matrix movies sucked was a lot more offputting for me.

The modern Klingons in particular have unsavory undertones.

What?!?! The TNG-DS9-VOY Klingons are a lot more "savory" than the creeps of the TOS era. 24th C Klingons are just a pack of gruff space pirates who like to stomp, shout, sing, get drunk and fight. They have a more-or-less stable social order. Their society is color blind and pretty gender-equal considering it's a marial society. They are essentially honest people who the Starfleeters can get along with.

Their tendency to fight all-out makes them very useful allies (let them be the cannon fodder.) Their worst quality is a tendency to drone on boringly about their frakkin' honor, but even they know that about themselves. Klingons are among Trek's most charming aliens, people even complain about them being too "neutered" compared with the 23rd C versions, who seemed more nasty and psychotic.

 

[comicbookwriter]

Wow... cool.

I believe this is the first time in the history of TrekBBS where a discussion about race and sci-fi hasn't degenerated into a "you're racist" vs. "No, I'm not" war of words.

Very refreshing and very much in tune with the principles of Trek. We don't have to agree with each other 100%, but we can have a respectful discussion.

I saw a lot of points on here that I agreed with and a few that I didn't, and I guess I will list my points and hope that people understand what I am saying.

1) BLACK TV SHOWS = BAD QUALITY: I know a lot of folks assume that an all-black cast automatically equals a bad show in terms of writing quality, but there were a lot of shows with large black casts that people ignored that were pretty decent. It happens with shows with white casts too, but the reasons might be varied as to why a white series might not succeed (bad timeslot, changing timeslot, bad acting, or usually something not related to the audience not giving the show a chance because of the racial composition of the cast).

Over the years, I have watched funny black sitcoms or quality dramas disappear from the TV screen and watched horrible shows (like those Tyler Perry sit-coms) stay on the air forever.

Here are a few quality black shows that got cancelled fast (in no particular order):

BUILT TO LAST (1997 season): This show starred comedian Royale Watkins (this was the black guy who was on the final season of the MTV dating show SINGLED OUT). It was an African-American middle class family living in Washington D.C. IIRC, and it was heartwarming and funny. Big family style comedy like JUST THE TEN OF US. Didn't last. I thought it was very, very smart and funny.

UNDER ONE ROOF (1995 season): This family drama was nominated for several Emmy Awards and it starred James Earl Jones, Joe Morton, and Essence Atkins (the shorter sister from the sit-com HALF & HALF). It was about a retired police officer living in Seattle sharing his home with his family. Another quality show, brilliant, but unheralded by the audience. Quality acting. Also cancelled fast.

LINC'S (1998-1999): This show was about a black bar owner in D.C. and his patrons. Starred Tim Reid (Venus Flytrap from WKRP in Cincinatti) and Pam Grier and was notable for its heavy right-wing/Republican views despite a predominantly black cast. Showed that not all blacks are left-wing liberal Democrats (something ignored by the media). Very, very, very smart show, lasted for a season and a half. Adult writing, nothing for kids on the show.

704 HAUSER (1994): This show starred John Amos (James Evans from GOOD TIMES) who played a retiree who moved into the old Archie Bunker house from ALL IN THE FAMILY. Also notable because the father in the show was a hardcore 60s black radical and his son had married a white woman and was a right-wing Republican. Was funny, but also didn't shy away from controversy.

Ugh... I gotta go to work... I will finish this later!

CBW

 

[Harvey]

The modern Klingons in particular have unsavory undertones.

What?!?!

All dark skinned in make-up (and predominantly performed by African-American actors)? Often mystical. Mostly warriors, who drink blood wine and engage in other "savagery."

Yes, it's a read completely without nuance of the 24th Century Klingons, but it's hard to miss, at first.

 

[captcalhoun]

since when are Klingons 'often mystical'? they KILLED their Gods! that's hardly mystical!

 

[Harvey]

since when are Klingons 'often mystical'? they KILLED their Gods! that's hardly mystical!

The death yell, much of the mysticism surrounding Kahless, etc.

I'm not that interested in defending the argument, though, for, as I should have been more clear about before, it's not a very nuanced read of the series. As such, it's not one that I particularly prescribe to.

 

[JoeZhang]

Saw this today from the writer Derek Kirk Kim

When my brother and I were in high school, our favorite class was Drama. While we were rehearsing for the next day’s class or participating in a school play or dancing it up at the after party, I don’t think there was anything we liked more. During such times, it even surpassed our love of—dare I say it—comics. But we never even entertained the notion of actually pursuing it as a career.

Not because we didn’t want to, but because we had too much pride to spend our entire lives pretending to be Long Duk Dong, or a Chinese food delivery boy with one line, or a Kato to some Green Hornet. Or even worse, having our hearts broken over and over going after roles that specifically call for Asian Americans like “Avatar, The Last Airbender” only to see them go to white actors. Back in my Drama days in high school, I used to dream of being white so I could pursue acting.

With discrimination like this “Avatar” casting continuing to happen uncontested in Hollywood, my future kids will nurse the same pitiful wish. And it infuriates me.

If my future kids feel a passion for acting, I want them to be able to pursue it just like any other American. If they’re forced to give up that passion due to a genuine lack of talent or hard work, fine. But I don’t want their dreams to be clipped at the bud by some unassailable, universally accepted dismissal of their existence on the face this country.

http://derekkirkkim.blogspot.com/2009/01/new-day-in-politics-same-old-racist.html

 

[stj]

Nothing about being a warrior race, or being dominated by "honor," turns Klingons into BadAssMoFos or animals in the sack. That comes straight from stereotypes about African Americans. For that matter, the careful refusal to show Klingons actually oppressing their Empire---can they have an Empire since there's apparently no one else in it? Who the hell do they fight?---also shows there's something else going on with the Klingons.

Ronald D. Moore, the Batleth Boy himself, went onto Voyager, was told he had a free hand and did nothing with B'elanna Torres. In fact, in all those pages ranting about Voyager, the man apparently never noticed that Torres was written exactly like a half Black/half white contemporary woman. This flaw in conceptualizing Torres was one of Voyager's major failings but it came straight from the modern Klingon playbook. That's why, when Torres tries to genetically engineer her child into a blue-eyed blonde no one noticed how bizarre this was. The low rent Klingons, the Kazons, were explicitly modeled on the Bloods and the Crips.

Nuance? Nuance? I didn't know that was a synonym for denying the obvious!

 

[Harvey]

Ronald D. Moore's time on Voyager is irrelevant, since his time on that show was only six episodes. The episode in which Torres tries to change the heritage of her unborn child is nothing short of character assassination--at least that's the way I felt about it when it aired--and I haven't bothered to watch it again since. Moore was long gone by the time it aired, too.

The fact that the Klingon's "Empire" is pretty much empty is the same flaw that afflicts the "Dominion" and the Romulan "Empire." It's a conceptual problem rooted in budgetary limitations.

Nuance would be to move on past the generalities being drawn and to pay attention to specifics: Worf's characterization as a successful single father, episodes like "Judgment" (ENT) which illustrate complexities and differences in Klingon culture, and Star Trek VI's clever deconstruction of notions of Klingon barbarism.

All of which is not to give the "obvious" a pass, but to acknowledge the complexity of the show.

 

[Hoshi_Mayweather]

I love B5, but, uh....no. The show may have been about as diverse as the United States, but not nearly as diverse as the entire world. In fact, the vibe on the show felt very much like "this is the future of *America*" rather than "this is the future of all of humanity" (not that Trek does it any better).

Really, if you were going to do a realistic portrayal of a distant future in which all of the Earth is united under a single banner, whites would be just a small fraction of the total population. I would think that Asians would be the most common racial group, but I'm not counting on a sci-fi show with a mostly Asian cast being commissioned any time soon.

This is what makes Firefly so unintentionally insulting. On some level they got it right in that Asian cultures are central to the presented universe. However, asian PEOPLE were noticeably absent. Its not that Asians are scarce or anything....Ridley Scott managed to find plenty to populate his 2019 LA back in the 80s.

Firefly did not even need to have a majority asian cast. There just should have been some SOMEWHERE.

I don't think "insulting" is the word I'd use.

And I'm pretty sure there were quite a few Asians walking around Persephone in pilot episode.

Maybe Asians managed to become an elite class (which would explain their influence), so they probably wouldn't have run into the Serenity crew very often.

Ummmm, well if we er, they became elite...I'm sure the Firefly crew would have ran into them from time to time.

The fact that the Matrix movies sucked was a lot more offputting for me.

Yeah, Matrix sequels didn't do much for me. I was still asking questions.

I do recall the boyfriend liking them; although, he had trouble answering my questions about the film...

Wow... cool.

I believe this is the first time in the history of TrekBBS where a discussion about race and sci-fi hasn't degenerated into a "you're racist" vs. "No, I'm not" war of words.

Very refreshing and very much in tune with the principles of Trek. We don't have to agree with each other 100%, but we can have a respectful discussion.

The Obama effect?

I saw a lot of points on here that I agreed with and a few that I didn't, and I guess I will list my points and hope that people understand what I am saying.

1) BLACK TV SHOWS = BAD QUALITY: I know a lot of folks assume that an all-black cast automatically equals a bad show in terms of writing quality, but there were a lot of shows with large black casts that people ignored that were pretty decent. It happens with shows with white casts too, but the reasons might be varied as to why a white series might not succeed (bad timeslot, changing timeslot, bad acting, or usually something not related to the audience not giving the show a chance because of the racial composition of the cast).

Over the years, I have watched funny black sitcoms or quality dramas disappear from the TV screen and watched horrible shows (like those Tyler Perry sit-coms) stay on the air forever.

Here are a few quality black shows that got cancelled fast (in no particular order):

BUILT TO LAST (1997 season): This show starred comedian Royale Watkins (this was the black guy who was on the final season of the MTV dating show SINGLED OUT). It was an African-American middle class family living in Washington D.C. IIRC, and it was heartwarming and funny. Big family style comedy like JUST THE TEN OF US. Didn't last. I thought it was very, very smart and funny.

UNDER ONE ROOF (1995 season): This family drama was nominated for several Emmy Awards and it starred James Earl Jones, Joe Morton, and Essence Atkins (the shorter sister from the sit-com HALF & HALF). It was about a retired police officer living in Seattle sharing his home with his family. Another quality show, brilliant, but unheralded by the audience. Quality acting. Also cancelled fast.

LINC'S (1998-1999): This show was about a black bar owner in D.C. and his patrons. Starred Tim Reid (Venus Flytrap from WKRP in Cincinatti) and Pam Grier and was notable for its heavy right-wing/Republican views despite a predominantly black cast. Showed that not all blacks are left-wing liberal Democrats (something ignored by the media). Very, very, very smart show, lasted for a season and a half. Adult writing, nothing for kids on the show.

704 HAUSER (1994): This show starred John Amos (James Evans from GOOD TIMES) who played a retiree who moved into the old Archie Bunker house from ALL IN THE FAMILY. Also notable because the father in the show was a hardcore 60s black radical and his son had married a white woman and was a right-wing Republican. Was funny, but also didn't shy away from controversy.

Ugh... I gotta go to work... I will finish this later!

CBW

Let's not forget 'The Cosby Show'...which was on for a couple of seasons...

I think there was only one show that was representing Asians: 'All American Girl' with Margaret Cho on ABC. However, I don't think she gave much input into that show...and if she did, I don't think it was accepted.

She was not only told what weight she should be, but that she wasn't acting 'Asian' enough...

There hasn't been a show with Asian leads since then...

I would actually say African-Americans have more control than Asians do....but it's how that control is used. You have some who want to write good stories, and then you have some who play into stereotypes...

In regards to sci-fi, there just has to be 'people of color' behind the scenes.

The creator of 'Grey's Anatomy' is a black woman, so there is hope for a person of color to create a cool sci-fi show...