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Series moving to big screen

TV shows rarely translate into good movies. The problem is that TV shows, over time, tend to know their audience. Viewers learn who the characters are, their back story and information about the world around them. At 20-26 episodes a season, you generally get ALOT of information over a long period of time. With sci-fi in particular, TV helps to build the universe.

Translating that to movies is VERY difficult (especially given how much deeper the storytelling tends to be in modern dramas of any kind). Film writers have to assume that the audience is ignorant of anything that happend on however many years the show was on TV, while at the same time appealing to people that liked the show.

That formula almost never works the first time around. Star Trek is actually pretty unusual in a number of respects. First of all, the initial movies were based on a tv series where "continunity" was largely irrelevant. IE, the series was made to be shown in any order and there was very little character development. Thus at the start of the Trek film franchise all they had to do was kind of establish "the Federation" as an entity and the crew of the Enterprise as the focus. If you think about it, most of what we know about 23rd century star trek and the GTOS characters we learned from the movies. Star Trek was fleshed out on the big screen in a way that it was never done on TV up until that point. (and the movies introduced serialized storytelling to Trek). The TNG movies had an even easier job becuase thier universe was widely established. It just needed updating (thus Generations gets the 78 years later title card). The problems for the TNG films past First contact was that they seemed to abandon the things that made TNG interesting while simultaneously creating villans that were not particularly interesting.

I suspect that an SG-1 feature film would have been pretty lackluster as well. Stargate has the dubious challenge of starting as a film and then moving to TV...trying to make it a film franchise again would be problematic at best. The problem is that most of the people who would go to see the film would know nothing about the 10 year history of SG-1 but may be familliar with the original film. Thus time would have to be wasted explaining who the characters are, what is the whole SG business and how does this fit with the original Kurt Russell film. Then they'd have to decide who the villan would be. Using a Goa'uld (who are atleast related to the vilian in the original film) would require additional exposition (because you then need to e-plain Teal'c and the Jaffa). Too much has happened for a real feature to work.
 
^^^All very well said!!

I totally disagree that the TNG movies were simply longer episodes, but at the same time, I think I understand why people may say that. Filming technique, effects, and budget all keep increasing to the point where the gap between film and television is shrinking. TOS had an easier time with this because the effects and the craft were so different, it was easy to see the transition.

TNG's epic "All good things" to "Generations"? Not so much. How do you make a more epic movie than TNG's story about 1 man accidentally destroying the known galaxy? Yeah, not possible...

But the stories don't need to be epic. My favourite movies aren't epic by any means. They're generally quieter, subtler and more meaningful films. Ironically, what TNG appeared to be in the series, but then went the opposite way for the films.
 
Yes, every one of them except for First Contact sure felt like TV episodes.



Not even close.

don't agree at all, they were movies not two parters

But why? What makes you feel that (in your case) they were movies and not two-parters?
When I watch them, nothing it them feels like a two parter. They feel like the original movies but with a lot more stuff happening in them (well Star Trek 6 has a lot in it too) I can not find anywhere or anything that tells me that 'ah yes.....these are two parters'.....where to me they feel like movies
 
Film writers have to assume that the audience is ignorant of anything that happend on however many years the show was on TV, while at the same time appealing to people that liked the show.

That is what is generally assumed, but do they? I can only speak for myself, but I like it when a film (or a story in general) evokes the feeling that there is a whole back story somewhere to be found out and not spelled out word for word on screen. Even when that back story does not exist in the form of a accompanying tv series (or book or comic or whatever), I still like to feel that these people I'm watching exist outside of the two hours of film.

It's one the (many) great things for example in the works of Tolkien. If you read (or watch) Lord of the Rings, there's this amazing sense of history behind it. Your not shielded from it, your invited to experience it. And in that particular case it even exists in other stories, so you can go and read them if you want. But if you don't, than that's fine too, LOTR can still be enjoyed for all that it is.

It's what got me into Star Trek in the first place. I had seen the odd episode on television, but what really got my interest was seeing First Contact, a film that definitely showed that there was a whole universe behind it: Picard's history with the Borg, earth's first contact with the Vulcans. The whole film was set against a pre-existing universe. And we, the viewers, didn't get a complete who is who and what is what, just enough to get by and the rest was left for yourself to figure out later, if you wanted to. I wanted to, and here I am discussing this 12 year old film still on a Star Trek BBS. :rommie:

The point I want to make? For me films that embrace the history of their setting, be it real historical or fictional (or even non-existing in any sense and just 'made up' for that particular film) tend to engage me much more than those that pretend to live in a vacuum. And considering the success of films like Wrath of Kahn, First Contact, The X-Files (the first one), or, moving away from television franchises, Lord of the Rings or the Harry Potter films, that all had this sense of 'being part of something greater', I'd say I'm not the only one who likes that. So why is there this persistent idea (so it seems) that films based on a series have to start with a clean sheet?
 
I'd say that a film, especially one that is essentially competing with episode predecessors, has to have more emotional and dramatic intensity, and that comes in part with streamlining. TWoK had the Enterprise, Khan and Carol & David, First Contact had Picard/Lily, Earth and Data/Borg Queen that we got to fairly quickly, while in Generations we saw an investigation, Picard's grief and how Soran knew of it, the subplot with Data, Picard learning of and having to convince Kirk, and in Insurrection there was the introduction of a culture, more Data comedy, some romance, an ethical dilemma (although low-stakes since we knew the Federation Council would, when informed, back our heroes); decent stuff, but too much too slowly takes away from the central characters & plot and gives more of an episode feel.
In The Simpsons Movie, Bart seeing the good side of Flanders was original and welcome, but we'd seen Lisa having a crush and other elements too much (at the same time, here I was disappointed that Krusty, Burns, Milhouse, Apu didn't have larger roles).
 
In "Insurrection," all that was at stake was the fate of a few hundred civilians on a backwater alien planet. In order to win, all our heroes had to do was fight a couple of uninspired aliens in a pair of spaceships.

Little wonder that "First Contact" is considered to be cinematic, and "Insurrection" no better than a two-parter.

Ironic considering that the making of documentaries talk about how Insurrection used far more sets & locations than First Contact did. Of course, Insurrection had the benefit of amortizing all the Enterprise-E sets that were built for First Contact and it also used more redressed Voyager sets. But the production values don't always matter if the scope of the story isn't bigger.

Also, I think that First Contact had the benefit of better direction and production design. Everything in First Contact was very dark, creepy, and stylish. Insurrection was brighter and, as a result, looked more mundane. They can talk up how much it cost to shoot all that location work but there wasn't anything spectacularly interesting about the location to give it scope. Some of that may be the terrain. Some of that may be direction. Compare the evacuation of the Baku village in Insurrection to the evacuation of the capitol of Rohan in The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers. They are very similar scenes but Peter Jackson was able to coax a certain scope out of the landscape that Jonathan Frakes was not.

MOST of the Star Trek movies featured major changes to the characters/storylines except for maybe TMP and TFF

Well, The Motion Picture shook things up by jumping a few years into the future and showing us glimpses of what Kirk, Spock, & McCoy had been doing since the TV show ended.

Interestingly, although I'd say the story of The Final Frontier has an appropriately "cinematic" scope, there's still something about it that feels less like a movie and more like the 2-hour pilot to a new Enterprise-A TV series.

In television, we generally grow to feel like we know the characters more intimately than film characters. We watch them grow over multiple seasons, learn about their families, their upbringing, their hopes and dreams beyond what their jobs are in the series.

When we go to see them in the movies, often this sense of intimacy becomes lost in favor of the plot of the movie. TNG suffered immensely from this. The series just had too many characters to receive the treatment each deserved within the space of a two hour film. Although I haven't seen it, I hear the recent X-Files movie had a similar feel.

Agreed with the people who refuted this. The X-Files: I Want to Believe had the opposite problem. There was so much emphasis on Mulder & Scully's character development and way too little plot development. Hardly anything happens until the last half hour. It's not like an extra-long TV episode. It's far worse than that. The TV show was never this boring. And it's not like there were too many characters vying for screen time. We saw nary a hint of John Doggett, Monica Reyes, the Lone Gunmen, or any of the other recurring characters that made the TV show so beloved. Instead, they were counting on Mulder & Scully (who, for my money, were never that interesting anyway) to fill time and compensate for an even weaker storyline.

I enjoyed Serenity immensely because (like the final Farscape miniseries) it bookended the television series quite nicely and gave closure to a lot of the character arcs.
Serenity did a good job of giving closure to the TV series. At the same time, there was something very cinematic about it. It felt bigger in terms of the plot (as it relates to the scope of the whole Firefly universe), the production values, and the amount of jeopardy that the characters were in. Two of the regulars died and, after Wash died, I became convinced that none of them would make it out alive (except for maybe Mal & River).

On the other hand, I don't consider the direct-to-video Stargate SG-1 movies to be proper movies at all. They're simply glorified, more expensive TV episodes. Certainly, "The Ark of Truth" feels that way since its whole purpose was to tie up the loose ends of the Orii storyline left after the show was cancelled. And while "Continuum" stands on its own a little better, it still feels about the same size as a 2-part TV episode. (It doesn't help that the plot is a blatant rip-off of the "Mobius" 2-parter from Season 8.)

And, GENERALLY ...

TV, more tightly edited and paced to build to pre-commercial mini-climaxes, so rising action and structure is different.

Features - slower paced and build to ONE climax.

TV - Music not used as effectively or as often.

Features - lusher scores, more integral to what's on the screen.
I find it interesting that Doctor Who (the new series) breaks both those "rules".

I think Steven Moffat once said that you know your Doctor Who story is big enough if it makes you say, "Well, there goes that feature I'd been writing."

Honestly, sometimes the quicker pace of TV episode structure can be better than a movie. I remember when Mighty Morphin Power Rangers: The Movie came out. Then, the following fall, the TV show retold the same story in a different way that better fit in with the continuity of the TV show. My best friend & I often felt that, although the movie was "better," the "Ninja Quest" 4-parter was more entertaining.
 
I agree with PlainSimple that movies based on TV shows don't need to completely dumb down the backstories of the TV shows that they're based on. And the evidence doesn't support that either. 3 of the 4 most successful Star Trek movies included strong ties to what came before. The Wrath of Khan was the sequel to "Space Seed." First Contact was the sequel to "The Best of Both Worlds." The Voyage Home didn't tie into the TV show so much but it did contain a bunch of confusing references to The Wrath of Khan & The Search for Spock. And The X-Files: Fight the Future was the only time before or since that I ever understood the whole alien conspiracy arc on that show.

TNG's epic "All good things" to "Generations"? Not so much. How do you make a more epic movie than TNG's story about 1 man accidentally destroying the known galaxy? Yeah, not possible...

I would say that Generations had a lot of elements that felt like a movie but those were muddled a bit by the movie coming so quickly off the heels of the TV show and the fact that they were using all of the same sets from the TV show but lighting them completely differently. It was like we were on the Enterprise-D but it wasn't really the Enterprise-D. I think the next 3 movies benefitted enormously from replacing the Enterprise-D with the Enterprise-E. The Enterprise-D sets were simply never meant to be lit the way that they were trying to light them in Generations.

In The Simpsons Movie, Bart seeing the good side of Flanders was original and welcome, but we'd seen Lisa having a crush and other elements too much (at the same time, here I was disappointed that Krusty, Burns, Milhouse, Apu didn't have larger roles).

I certainly agree that they could have used Mr. Burns to much better effect. He's such a natural villain for the series, it felt odd for him to not be somehow more involved in Springfield's darkest hour.
 
My problems with Serenity stem a lot from the film's decision to change details of the show. A darker Mal, and a more darkly lit Serenity (witness the dramatic color change in the cargo bay between series to film) may make sense dramatically, but eliminate much of the humor that made the series work in the first place. A more active Simon (who goes from having paid off people to rescue River to rescuing her in dramatic fashion, who argues more hastily with Mal in the film's opening, and who suddenly can deactivate River with a safe word [wouldn't that plot contrivance have been helpful on the series]) don't help carry over the series' best elements, either.
 
The biggest change is the visual. Movies are shot with much wider shots, TV is shot with more mediums and close-ups.

But that wouldn't account for people feeling that a movie is just like any old episode.

It's the main reason a movie feels like a movie and a TV episode feels like a TV episode.

Visual perception is the chief aspect of films and television. You can talk about story, music, and whatever other elements you want, but if a movie is shot claustrophobically, it'll seem immediately much more like a TV episode.

Movies are more expansive, TV episodes are more "personal" and tight. Visually.

--Ted
 
We saw nary a hint of John Doggett, Monica Reyes, the Lone Gunmen, or any of the other recurring characters that made the TV show so beloved. Instead, they were counting on Mulder & Scully (who, for my money, were never that interesting anyway) to fill time and compensate for an even weaker storyline.

You must not have liked The X-Files very much then, seeing as how Doggett only got into the series in season 8 (out of 9), Reyes only in the last season (apart from a handful of episodes in season 8), and The Lone Gunmen were only in a couple episodes per season anyway. Compare that to seven and half seasons of Mulder and nine seasons of Scully.


The biggest change is the visual. Movies are shot with much wider shots, TV is shot with more mediums and close-ups.

But that wouldn't account for people feeling that a movie is just like any old episode.

It's the main reason a movie feels like a movie and a TV episode feels like a TV episode.

Visual perception is the chief aspect of films and television. You can talk about story, music, and whatever other elements you want, but if a movie is shot claustrophobically, it'll seem immediately much more like a TV episode.

Movies are more expansive, TV episodes are more "personal" and tight. Visually.

--Ted

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks.
 
My problems with Serenity stem a lot from the film's decision to change details of the show. A darker Mal, and a more darkly lit Serenity (witness the dramatic color change in the cargo bay between series to film) may make sense dramatically, but eliminate much of the humor that made the series work in the first place. A more active Simon (who goes from having paid off people to rescue River to rescuing her in dramatic fashion, who argues more hastily with Mal in the film's opening, and who suddenly can deactivate River with a safe word [wouldn't that plot contrivance have been helpful on the series]) don't help carry over the series' best elements, either.

I agree with this assesment completely. That was my biggest problem with Serenity. It has more in common with the original concept of "Serenity" than it does with the other aired episodes of Firely. Simon and Mal were totally off character. Everyone else was fine, but given that these two characters were central to the movie plot, it was noticeably jarring. Then there was the absence of the western motif... I was never overly fond of that concept (neither was Fox), but it was integral part of the series.
 
We saw nary a hint of John Doggett, Monica Reyes, the Lone Gunmen, or any of the other recurring characters that made the TV show so beloved. Instead, they were counting on Mulder & Scully (who, for my money, were never that interesting anyway) to fill time and compensate for an even weaker storyline.

You must not have liked The X-Files very much then, seeing as how Doggett only got into the series in season 8 (out of 9), Reyes only in the last season (apart from a handful of episodes in season 8), and The Lone Gunmen were only in a couple episodes per season anyway. Compare that to seven and half seasons of Mulder and nine seasons of Scully.

I certainly am not as rabid about the show as some of its fans can be. I was rarely more than a casual viewer. But one of the conclusions I did come to was that John Doggett was far more interesting than Mulder & Scully ever were. I mostly attribute that to Robert Patrick being the most awesome actor in the universe.

Also, to the extent that the Mulder/Scully episodes kept me watching, it was because of the various creepy episode plots. Like I said, I Want to Believe is even thinner on plot than the thinnest episodes of the TV series. 90% of the "plot" is Billy Connolly muttering variations on, "She's there. She's in pain."
 
Some movies from shows feel like longer, more expensive episodes because they aren't large enough in scope - they aren't epic enough, the stakes aren't much higher than they usually are. Furthermore, when the stakes are high, what's required to save the day is a lot more on the part of our heroes than when the stakes are lower.

I am going to go against the grain and stick up for the smaller scale films. Consider this - if all the USS Enterprise ever gets to do is save the whole universe each and every film, then it gets rather meaningless and dull.

I realize that most of the 'episode' type films are weaker, but I don't think that this is because of the scope. Problem is the weakness of the story itself. If one is going to do a smaller-scale story, then it should be a damn good one.
 
Also, I think that First Contact had the benefit of better direction and production design. Everything in First Contact was very dark, creepy, and stylish. Insurrection was brighter and, as a result, looked more mundane. They can talk up how much it cost to shoot all that location work but there wasn't anything spectacularly interesting about the location to give it scope. Some of that may be the terrain. Some of that may be direction. Compare the evacuation of the Baku village in Insurrection to the evacuation of the capitol of Rohan in The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers. They are very similar scenes but Peter Jackson was able to coax a certain scope out of the landscape that Jonathan Frakes was not.

Amen to that.... I just had to quote this excellent paragraph...

Most TV production just isn't on the same level as good feature film production. Money is clearly one factor, but talent is another.

If you bring a lot of TV people to a movie (such as "ST:Insurrection") - well, you get what you get. I don't think it was wise to give such an important film to a new director - even though Jonathan Frakes seems like a nice guy.

I just recently saw "Insurrection" again, and while there there are decent production values in there somewhere, so many things just scream 'Star Trek TV production'. (generic caves sets, generic village sets, happy go lucky all human looking natives)

Plot-wise it also didn't help that there was no permanent changes caused by the movie - which made the whole thing feel very EPISODIC. All changes were reset at the end. There just wasn't any real chance of anything happening to our TV characters.

It will be very interesting to see Star Trek XI now... Which appears to have a complete cast change in front AND BEHIND the camera. We may quibble over JJ's decisions - but I think it will be safe to say that it won't feel like a TV episode.
 
Also, I think that First Contact had the benefit of better direction and production design. Everything in First Contact was very dark, creepy, and stylish. Insurrection was brighter and, as a result, looked more mundane. They can talk up how much it cost to shoot all that location work but there wasn't anything spectacularly interesting about the location to give it scope. Some of that may be the terrain. Some of that may be direction. Compare the evacuation of the Baku village in Insurrection to the evacuation of the capitol of Rohan in The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers. They are very similar scenes but Peter Jackson was able to coax a certain scope out of the landscape that Jonathan Frakes was not.

Amen to that.... I just had to quote this excellent paragraph...

Most TV production just isn't on the same level as good feature film production. Money is clearly one factor, but talent is another.

If you bring a lot of TV people to a movie (such as "ST:Insurrection") - well, you get what you get. I don't think it was wise to give such an important film to a new director - even though Jonathan Frakes seems like a nice guy.

I disagree somewhat. At that point, choosing Jonathan Frakes to direct Insurrection was a no-brainer because he had done such brilliant work on his feature debut with First Contact.

Star Trek has a strong tradition of handing the reins to new directors. Of the 1st 10 films, 8 of them were directed by men who made their feature directing debut on Star Trek. It was such inexperienced hands as Nicholas Meyer, Leonard Nimoy, & Jonathan Frakes that gave us the 5 best movies in the franchise-- The Wrath of Khan, The Search for Spock, The Voyage Home, The Undiscovered Country, & First Contact. Meanwhile, more seasoned directors brought in from the outside gave us very mixed results indeed. Robert Wise, the legend who had previously done The Day the Earth Stood Still, The Sound of Music, & West Side Story also gave us the absolutely sleep inducing Star Trek: The Motion Picture. And Stuart Baird was the one who gave us Star Trek's biggest flop ever-- Nemesis. (Granted, Baird's previous efforts on Executive Decision & U.S. Marshalls were nothing to write home about either.)

And while I don't think anyone can really say that The Motion Picture or Nemesis felt like a TV episode, did this larger scope make them better movies than some of the more modestly budgeted entries like The Wrath of Khan or First Contact?
 
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