Section 31: I hope it still happens.

[Noname Given]

I'm not going to write Section 31 off without seeing what it is first, but I am kind of confused about the title. Are they going to try to rehabilitate the group after they were the villains in DS9, Enterprise, Into Darkness and basically Discovery? If so, why?

IDK - I don't consider Section 31 a monolithic "villain" group just because we've seen a few bad apples in to per se. It like considering Starfleet wholly evil based on the actions of one evil Starfleet Admiral (which was a oft used trope both in TOS and TNG.)

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

The definition of an evil admiral is 'someone who acts like they're in Section 31'.

 

[Sci]

IDK - I don't consider Section 31 a monolithic "villain" group just because we've seen a few bad apples in to per se.

Which is fair as far as that goes, but how do you judge an institution that has organizationally chosen to defy the idea of democratic accountability and puts itself above the law at all times?

 

[Noname Given]

Which is fair as far as that goes, but how do you judge an institution that has organizationally chosen to defy the idea of democratic accountability and puts itself above the law at all times?

Except we don't know if that's actually the case with Section 31. All we have to go on is the word of one of its operatives, Sloan; and like the Cardassian Garak of the Obsidian Order, I wouldn't believe much of what he said with regard to how Section 31 may or may not operate.

In the DS9 episode involving Dr. Bashir at the Romulan conference, remember that there was a Starfleet Admiral 100% involved in the operation with full knowledge of said operation) and near the end we saw Sloan 'killed' in front of witnesses, and when pressed by Dr. Bashir, said Admiral tried to convince Dr. Bashir Sloan had been killed; finally comes clean and admits to doctor Bashir that the whole operation was to make sure a Romulan double agent kept his cover, and a Romulan patriot who was while not really against the Federation oh, not really an ally to the Federation; and who was causing problems for said Romulan double agent, was effectively removed from the field; and that Bashir had been lied to and very effectively manipulated by all of the Federation personnel involved in the operation, even with his enhanced intelligence.

That's why I would have no problem buying that Section 31 is operating with and reporting to select members of Starfleet and the Federation government, but of course the government wants to deny any and all involvement, or even existence of Section 31.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Except we don't know if that's actually the case with Section 31. All we have to go on is the word of one of its operatives, Sloan; and like the Cardassian Garak of the Obsidian Order, I wouldn't believe much of what he said with regard to how Section 31 may or may not operate.

I see no reason not to take Sloan at his word.

 

[Harpsichord]

I see no reason not to take Sloan at his word.

Maybe I've read too much Le Carre but I can think of a thousand reasons to not take a spy at their word.

 

[fireproof78]

Maybe I've read too much Le Carre but I can think of a thousand reasons to not take a spy at their word.

Especially if that spy says they love you...

 

[Harpsichord]

Especially if that spy says they love you...

If they say they love you it's a lie, unless they're coming in from the cold in which case they're telling the truth and.. well I don't want to spoil anything

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Maybe I've read too much Le Carre but I can think of a thousand reasons to not take a spy at their word.

Like @Sci said, though, it would not be in Sloan's best interest to paint Section 31 in a worse light than it actually is (as some seem to assume he's doing). If anything, Sloan would make it sound BETTER, not worse!

 

[dupersuper]

You're right. You haven't seen much Mission: Impossible. Go watch it some time. It's on Paramount+.

I haven't seen every episode, but I've seen a lot of them. Most of them are either about stopping dictators of fictional countries or (in later seasons) disrupting whatever the mob is up to.

So...no genocide?

 

[Harpsichord]

Like @Sci said, though, it would not be in Sloan's best interest to paint Section 31 in a worse light than it actually is (as some seem to assume he's doing). If anything, Sloan would make it sound BETTER, not worse!

I'm not sure how much better he could have made it sound. He disavowed any connection to the Federation (mandatory) and then hammered in how much loyalty to the Federation mattered. It was the whole point of testing Julian in the first place.

 

[Lord Garth]

So...no genocide?

Not in the episodes I've seen, sorry. But, if I ever come across it in one of the ones I haven't seen yet, you're the first person I'll tell. Pinkie swear.

At least nothing committed by the IMF Force. I can't remember off-hand what some fictional dictator in some episode they were trying to stop might have done, it's been a while. But you have to remember: they're only a team of four. And it was '60s-'70s TV. How much and how bad could the IMF actually do? Really, really, really think about that for a moment. A television show in the '60s and '70s.

Anyway...

All the episodes I've seen involve the IMF getting into and out of sticky situations with a dictator overthrown, a mob boss stopped, or someone crooked and corrupt exposed. That's what the series was. Don't forget, this show was also produced by Desilu Studios, just like Star Trek. So, in a studio sense (not a franchise sense since The Franchise didn't exist yet), Mission: Impossible was Star Trek's sister show.

Mission: Impossible was a very visual show. You had to watch it as in watch it. Your eyes had to be glued to the TV. If you just listened to it, you'd be totally lost. The suspense and the thrill and the enjoyment I get out of watching it is seeing how they get into and out of situations they ended up in on their missions. It wasn't really plot-driven or character-driven, so much as "these are the mechanics of how you stage an operation" and watching them pull it off.

Also, while we're on the subject: the soundtrack for the Mission: Impossible series is awesome. Lalo Schiffrin was a great composer. I love his soundtracks for the Dirty Harry films too. And I also get a kick out watching the styles change as the show shifted from the '60s to the '70s. So there are all kinds of things I like about the show.

 

[Sci]

Except we don't know if that's actually the case with Section 31.

There is no evidence Sloan's claim is false.

All we have to go on is the word of one of its operatives, Sloan; and like the Cardassian Garak of the Obsidian Order, I wouldn't believe much of what he said with regard to how Section 31 may or may not operate.

A Section 31 agent whose mind Bashir and O'Brien later entered and Bashir later searched. He would have found out that Section 31 answers to the Federation President if it did. Hell, instead he found out that Section 31 actively spied on the President because they had an agent in Jaresh-Inyo's cabinet!

The idea that Sloan is lying when he claims Section 31 doesn't answer to the Federation government is also patently insane. In real life, espionage agencies do not claim that they don't take orders from their own governments. The CIA doesn't run around claiming it doesn't answer to the U.S. President. MI6 doesn't recruit by telling people they don't answer to the British Prime Minister. The FSB and GRU don't pretend they don't answer to the Russian President. That's not how anyone finds loyal agents.

In the DS9 episode involving Dr. Bashir at the Romulan conference, remember that there was a Starfleet Admiral 100% involved in the operation with full knowledge of said operation) and near the end we saw Sloan 'killed' in front of witnesses, and when pressed by Dr. Bashir, said Admiral tried to convince Dr. Bashir Sloan had been killed; finally comes clean and admits to doctor Bashir that the whole operation was to make sure a Romulan double agent kept his cover,

Koval was never in danger of being exposed. The goal was to maneuver him onto the Continuing Committee, not save his cover.

and a Romulan patriot who was while not really against the Federation oh, not really an ally to the Federation;

AKA, an innocent woman.

and who was causing problems for said Romulan double agent, was effectively removed from the field;

AKA, condemned to either execution or a shortened life of imprisonment and torture.

That's why I would have no problem buying that Section 31 is operating with and reporting to select members of Starfleet and the Federation government, but of course the government wants to deny any and all involvement, or even existence of Section 31.

Again, why wouldn't Sloan just tell Bashir that, then? Bashir's biggest objection to Section 31 is that they put themselves above the law. If Sloan could just say, "We still answer to the same democratically-elected government you do. We're just a classified organization," it would be in his best interests to do so.

I'm not sure how much better he could have made it sound. He disavowed any connection to the Federation (mandatory)

That's not making it sound "good!" That is literally the definition of an attack upon democracy! Organizations wielding the power of the democratic state must be answerable to the democratic state or else it is an attack on democracy itself.

and then hammered in how much loyalty to the Federation mattered.

Section 31 are not loyal to the Federation. You are not loyal to the democratic state if you are not answerable to the democratic state.

 

[BillJ]

They're still eager to reform Space Hitler, someone who killed on the order of millions of beings. Awesome stuff and such a great message for Star Trek: if you run far enough, no one can try you for your crimes and you can just join our nation.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

To change the subject to Space Hitler for a moment, I find the concept that anyone can be rehabilited and then find a place in society to be extremely Star Trek.

 

[fireproof78]

Darth Vader gets redeemed. And even joins the heroes in one comic.

Plus Kor gets to be a hero too. Star Trek is not above a redemption story.

 

[BillJ]

To change the subject to Space Hitler for a moment, I find the concept that anyone can be rehabilited and then find a place in society to be extremely Star Trek.

Really? Someone who never had to answer for their crimes against humanity should just get to get away scot free?

 

[BillJ]

Plus Kor gets to be a hero too. Star Trek is not above a redemption story.

I'm sure there's a ton of Nazi's out their that would love to see Hitler redemption fiction.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm sure there's a ton of Nazi's out their that would love to see Hitler redemption fiction.

Probably. Don't know any of them.

But, here's the thing. Star Trek is about humans becoming better. If you want me to believe that humanity can evolve, become better, then demonstrate it by giving the "very flower of humanity" the possibility of becoming better. Otherwise, current humanity is doomed and there is no reason to believe in a Star Trek future.

 

[BillJ]

But, here's the thing. Star Trek is about humans becoming better. If you want me to believe that humanity can evolve, become better, then demonstrate it by giving the "very flower of humanity" the possibility of becoming better. Otherwise, current humanity is doomed and there is no reason to believe in a Star Trek future.

Sometimes, there are just bad people who are beyond redemption, it doesn't mean humanity as a whole is beyond it.