Here's my thing. Star Trek already did that-with the Klingon Empire. Kor was willing to intern and slaughter the Organians and then is fully allowed to be with the heroes in a new series. This is not new to Star Trek. My larger point is this-one, it is fiction. Yes, I will use that standard because I know that Hitler grew up in a world where there was distinct right and wrong. I don't know that about Georgiou. The moral standard that I use for current humanity doesn't automatically translate. Two, and more importantly, you're right-we reap what we sow. Except, if I don't know that I have a choice I will always stick with what I know. I work with people on a daily basis who don't realize they have a choice with their depression, their anger or anxiety. A lot of times what I get to do is go up to a troubled teen and explore choices, options and possibilities, rather than just reliving what was modeled to them by parents who decided to model poor choices and behaviors. What I want from Trek is to actually show me that change is possible. Not just that humanity becomes better and evolves sight unseen. That's not good enough! So, if you can take someone from the Mirror Universe and have them recognize that there is a better way when they were raised that compassion and affection and trust were weaknesses is a better way than I say more power to it. Because we are supposed to believe humanity can become better. But, only if you are evolved enough human do you deserve any sort of ability to become better.
Then do what TOS did, and show the heroes being wrong in their thought processes expose their prejudices, don't try to redeem Space Hitler. Even if I thought it was a good idea, these are writers that simply don't have the chops to carry it out. Do we ever see Georgiou ever reflect on the millions she killed? Did we ever see her reflect on how the inferior population of the Terran Empire was treated? Of course not, they aren't important to the story and that is a dangerous mindset for anyone to have that is writing fiction for the masses. She's made kissy faces at a baby, she's obviously redeemed! That simple exchange is far more powerful indictment of closedmindedness than anything Discovery has been able to put on the air in three (four?) years.
Oh my God! It just came to me, Star Trek fans are protecting Georgiou because she has Affluenza! https://www.srclawgroup.com/blog/2019/july/what-is-the-affluenza-defense-/
I disagree that it is dangerous. TOS also praises the Nazis. How are we to regard that? Is that just as dangerous? Or do we have the moral clarity to debate and discuss these ideas in a forum to explore them? To discover this concept of redemption and who can earn it. Did Kor or the Klingons have to earn it as well? We know from TOS the Klingons enslaved whole planets, yet our heroes are shown to be wrong. And? That's...not it at all. If I thought the MU model morality in a way that we did I could get onboard with it. Since it appears she could not, then she needs to be taught and given the option to grow. And that's what the Guardian of Forever did was demonstrate that she had changed, so much so that she empowered the slave class in the Empire and recognized them as people. What more does she need to do to demonstrate change? Weep over lives lost? Perhaps give a speech? I don't agree with Georgiou but I find it crazy that an optimistic show about humanity who embraces murderers, tyrants and killers decides that this is the line that is too far. Humanity isn't just the best of us, but how we treat the worst.
One person praises the Nazis. Granted. Then the rest of the episode goes on to show us how dangerous that it was. Yep, Spock agrees with Gill about the efficiency of the Nazi state, because at the time, we didn't know what we know now about how overextended the Nazi state was and that it was really being held together with bailing wire and bubble gum. I think they were pretty clear that something like a Nazi state, even run benignly can go off the rails in pretty short order. And, the kicker, John Gill didn't get to conveniently escape his crimes, even though his intentions were misguided and he paid for it with his life. If he had survived, he would've been put in a rehabilitation facility for a really long time. With his dying breath, he admits he was wrong.
And if Georgiou admits she is wrong? She has to know there is a wrong first. Gill had that luxury; Georgiou did not.
Well, sort-of. We know that as Terran Emperor, Mirror Georgiou claims to have been responsible for rendering Mirror Qo'noS uninhabitable, subjugating the Betazoids, wiping out Mintaka III, and bombarding the Talosians. We also know that apparently her identity was not made public -- she was known as the "Faceless Emperor." And we know that she engaged in "Kelpiannibalism," seemingly fairly often. So, right off the bat, I think it's pretty clear that if Georgiou's claims are accurate, her body count is almost certainly comparable to that of the major real-life genociders such as Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Jackson, Van Buren, Leopold II, successive British viceroys over occupied India, etc. We do not know for sure if her actions led to the extinction of any species -- she does specifically say that the Klingon species survived the destruction of Qo'noS -- but it does seem highly probable that the Mintakans and Talosians were driven extinct by her actions if they are accurately described. I do think there's a legitimate question over the accuracy of her claims. As Emperor, and subsequently as a de facto prisoner of the Federation and of Section 31 prone to lashing out at others to maintain emotional distance, Mirror Georgiou would have had strong incentive to lie about the severity of her actions. Bottom line: If her claims are accurate, Mirror Georgiou is indeed a mass murderer and probable genocider on par with Adolf Hitler. The Guardian of Forever, however, determined that she has made a real and substantive change in its test of her. She really did try to find a better way to govern, and she gave her life for it. That's not redemption, but that also ain't nothin'. And there's something to be said for the idea that she could be forced to continue working for her redemption through compelling her to serve as a Federation agent, rather than just allowing her to sit in a prison cell the rest of her life. She could be every bit a prisoner of the Federation while serving as a forced Starfleet Intelligence operative as she could in a penal colony.
You're swimming pretty deep to try to get Georgiou off the hook for her crimes... Damndest thing? Is that they could've, with some decent writing, done a redemption arc for Georgiou. But they have no clue how to write a subtle emotional story. They could've had Georgiou replace the dead Shenzhou captain and struggle with her past and how she can keep up the charade then slowly grow as a person. Could've had her see have to walk through a brutal planetary attack, not sitting up high in her flagship, but as a Starfleet captain having to walk through the destruction on a planet. They just have no foresight and, really, no grasp on drama.
Not really, no. As I said, this is nothing new to Star Trek. And I am not excusing her crimes. I am asking how you try her for crimes that the Federation has no authority to try her for, by a standard of morality and law that was not present in her reality? Perhaps Q? Could have been interesting. I found the emotions of her story just fine but that's me. More than that, what disturbs more than that, is the line of when a human is "evolved enough" to earn Trek utopianism. As I see it, barring people for getting to learn and grow and become better is not evolved. Offer up the possibility of change to everyone, to become better. Otherwise, how many other characters are barred from evolutions? Klingons? Kor? Dukat? Garak? I want to know the line? Who is allowed in and by what standard do we judge all these people? That's what disturbs me. Not that Georgiou is deserving but she at least didn't know the moral thing. Now she does. Now she can be held accountable. She can make a change.
How great would life be if we could just get off the hook by saying "I didn't know murder was wrong!"
Except we can't. We know the moral system taught to us within the society we have. We don't know the Terran Empire. How do you apply our morality to that world? My point is this is not new to Trek. In fact, Dukat was changed because of the positive reception he got from the audience. Is that terrifying? Are we to "reap what we sow" with such villainous characters being portrayed so positively in Trek?
No. Everybody obviously knows different things, as seen in the Affluenza legal defense. Because we know they had morality in that world, we saw it throughout the Mirror Universe episodes that a great many people knew right from wrong. Ever wonder why so many white conservatives are Star Trek fans?
So Georgiou must know that? Therefore she should be sent back and tried for her crimes? That seems reasonable. Don't know. Don't care. That is outside the scope of this debate.
So the crimes against millions really don't count? Because they are 'other' their lives are meaningless from the Federation's perspective?
I mean, the Allies tried the Nazi leaders for actions they undertook that were perfectly legal in the territory they controlled, by a standard of morality and law that was not present in the Third Reich. So too did the State of Israel when it tried Adolf Eichmann. I would argue that the Allies and Israel had every right to do so, because some things are so immoral that they transcend legalism. And I think it's pretty obvious that the Terrans knew their acts of mass murder and genocide were wrong, because their victims continued to advance moral arguments against them in numerous rebellions that persisted over almost 110 years. It's not like the idea that this was immoral was absent from Terran culture; it's that Terran culture rejected equal rights out of fear.
Didn't say that. I want to find the venue in which Georgiou can be tried. How does the Federation try her? By all means, try her. Please. I just want to know the moral standard being applied and did Georgiou know it. I mean...I guess? I am more than willing to send Georgiou back to the Mirror Universe and have her tried for her crimes. Death is preferable to rehabilitation.
As @Sci pointed out, with real world precedent, she can be tried in the Federation. Nobody said she needed to be executed. But she does need to pay for her crimes in some manner.
Go for it. I'm all for it, please. I just believe that rehabilitation is also possible. After all, is the Federation going to execute her?