Section 31: I hope it still happens.

[fireproof78]

Every one has a choice, it has even been shown in the Mirror Universe that people have choices and that people know right from wrong. The Halkans somehow knew right from wrong in the Mirror Universe when they were willing to let their culture die rather than see the Empire use their dilithium for destructive purposes.

It is exceptionally disappointing to see Star Trek fans of all people lap this kind of non-sense up. In a supposed universe where life and self-determination seem to be the greatest value there is, they have jumped in bed with a fictional character who deprived millions or billions of that life and self-determination.

Have at it. We reap what we sow.

Here's my thing. Star Trek already did that-with the Klingon Empire. Kor was willing to intern and slaughter the Organians and then is fully allowed to be with the heroes in a new series. This is not new to Star Trek.

My larger point is this-one, it is fiction. Yes, I will use that standard because I know that Hitler grew up in a world where there was distinct right and wrong. I don't know that about Georgiou. The moral standard that I use for current humanity doesn't automatically translate.

Two, and more importantly, you're right-we reap what we sow. Except, if I don't know that I have a choice I will always stick with what I know. I work with people on a daily basis who don't realize they have a choice with their depression, their anger or anxiety. A lot of times what I get to do is go up to a troubled teen and explore choices, options and possibilities, rather than just reliving what was modeled to them by parents who decided to model poor choices and behaviors.

What I want from Trek is to actually show me that change is possible. Not just that humanity becomes better and evolves sight unseen. That's not good enough! So, if you can take someone from the Mirror Universe and have them recognize that there is a better way when they were raised that compassion and affection and trust were weaknesses is a better way than I say more power to it. Because we are supposed to believe humanity can become better. But, only if you are evolved enough human do you deserve any sort of ability to become better.

 

[BillJ]

What I want from Trek is to actually show me that change is possible. Not just that humanity becomes better and evolves sight unseen. That's not good enough!

Then do what TOS did, and show the heroes being wrong in their thought processes expose their prejudices, don't try to redeem Space Hitler. Even if I thought it was a good idea, these are writers that simply don't have the chops to carry it out. Do we ever see Georgiou ever reflect on the millions she killed? Did we ever see her reflect on how the inferior population of the Terran Empire was treated? Of course not, they aren't important to the story and that is a dangerous mindset for anyone to have that is writing fiction for the masses.

She's made kissy faces at a baby, she's obviously redeemed!

Kirk: Even if you have some power that we don't understand, you have no right to dictate to our Federation.
How to handle their interstellar relations! We have the right...
Ayelbourne: To wage war, Captain? To kill millions of innocent people? To destroy life on a planetary scale? Is that what you're defending?

That simple exchange is far more powerful indictment of closedmindedness than anything Discovery has been able to put on the air in three (four?) years.

 

[BillJ]

Oh my God! It just came to me, Star Trek fans are protecting Georgiou because she has Affluenza!

The “affluenza” defense—coined by a psychologist named G. Dick Miller—is used by affluent defendants to show that growing up rich can make a person fail to grasp the consequences of their actions since wealth can essentially buy privilege.

https://www.srclawgroup.com/blog/2019/july/what-is-the-affluenza-defense-/

 

[fireproof78]

Then do what TOS did, and show the heroes being wrong in their thought processes expose their prejudices, don't try to redeem Space Hitler. Even if I thought it was a good idea, these are writers that simply don't have the chops to carry it out. Do we ever see Georgiou ever reflect on the millions she killed? Did we ever see her reflect on how the inferior population of the Terran Empire was treated? Of course not, they aren't important to the story and that is a dangerous mindset for anyone to have that is writing fiction for the masses.

I disagree that it is dangerous. TOS also praises the Nazis. How are we to regard that? Is that just as dangerous? Or do we have the moral clarity to debate and discuss these ideas in a forum to explore them? To discover this concept of redemption and who can earn it. Did Kor or the Klingons have to earn it as well? We know from TOS the Klingons enslaved whole planets, yet our heroes are shown to be wrong.

That simple exchange is far more powerful indictment of closedmindedness than anything Discovery has been able to put on the air in three (four?) years.

And?

Oh my God! It just came to me, Star Trek fans are protecting Georgiou because she has Affluenza!



https://www.srclawgroup.com/blog/2019/july/what-is-the-affluenza-defense-/

That's...not it at all.

If I thought the MU model morality in a way that we did I could get onboard with it. Since it appears she could not, then she needs to be taught and given the option to grow. And that's what the Guardian of Forever did was demonstrate that she had changed, so much so that she empowered the slave class in the Empire and recognized them as people.

What more does she need to do to demonstrate change? Weep over lives lost? Perhaps give a speech?

I don't agree with Georgiou but I find it crazy that an optimistic show about humanity who embraces murderers, tyrants and killers decides that this is the line that is too far. Humanity isn't just the best of us, but how we treat the worst.

 

[BillJ]

TOS also praises the Nazis. How are we to regard that? Is that just as dangerous?

One person praises the Nazis. Granted. Then the rest of the episode goes on to show us how dangerous that it was.

MAN [on screen]: Attention. Attention. Attention. An announcement from Fuhrer Headquarters. Today, the Fuhrer has ordered our glorious capital to be made Zeon-free. Starting at dawn, our heroic troops have begun flushing out the Zeon monsters who've been poisoning our planet.

MAN [over images]: At this patriotic demonstration, Deputy Fuhrer Melakon presented the Iron Cross, second class, to Daras, hero of the Fatherland. (a blonde woman) Everywhere, preparations go forward toward the Final Decision, death to Zeon. Long live the Fatherland. Long live the Fuhrer.

SOLDIER: You, Zeons! What kind of monsters are the Zeons sending against us?

OFFICER: With all Zeon pigs, Lieutenant.

MAJOR: Do not joke with me, Zeon pig. Who is this alien? Things might go easier if you tell me about him.

MELAKON [OC]: But despite our best efforts, they remain like a cancer, eating away at our state.

MELAKON [OC]: In the cities, the eliminations have started. Within an hour, the Zeon blight will forever be removed from Ekos.

MELAKON [OC]: Our entire solar system will forever be rid of the disease that was Zeon.

GILL: Most efficient state Earth ever knew.
SPOCK: Quite true, Captain. That tiny country, beaten, bankrupt, defeated, rose in a few years to stand only one step away from global domination.
KIRK: But it was brutal, perverted, had to be destroyed at a terrible cost. Why that example?
SPOCK: Perhaps Gill felt that such a state, run benignly, could accomplish its efficiency without sadism.
KIRK: Why, Gill? Why?
GILL: Worked. At first it worked. Then Melakon began take over. Used the. Gave me the drug.

DARAS: The Deputy Fuhrer's an authority on the genetics of racial purity. How would you classify this one?

GILL: Even historians fail to learn from history. They repeat the same mistakes. Let the killing end. Let (dies)

Yep, Spock agrees with Gill about the efficiency of the Nazi state, because at the time, we didn't know what we know now about how overextended the Nazi state was and that it was really being held together with bailing wire and bubble gum. I think they were pretty clear that something like a Nazi state, even run benignly can go off the rails in pretty short order.

And, the kicker, John Gill didn't get to conveniently escape his crimes, even though his intentions were misguided and he paid for it with his life. If he had survived, he would've been put in a rehabilitation facility for a really long time. With his dying breath, he admits he was wrong.

 

[fireproof78]

And, the kicker, John Gill didn't get to conveniently escape his crimes, even though his intentions were misguided and he paid for it with his life. If he had survived, he would've been put in a rehabilitation facility for a really long time. With his dying breath, he admits he was wrong.

And if Georgiou admits she is wrong? She has to know there is a wrong first. Gill had that luxury; Georgiou did not.

 

[Sci]

She's not literally Hitler!

We got a character that was closer to Hitler on Deep Space Nine with Dukat and he steered away from any redemption arc hard. Because he was a terrible person. Georgiou didn't.

Well, sort-of.

We know that as Terran Emperor, Mirror Georgiou claims to have been responsible for rendering Mirror Qo'noS uninhabitable, subjugating the Betazoids, wiping out Mintaka III, and bombarding the Talosians. We also know that apparently her identity was not made public -- she was known as the "Faceless Emperor." And we know that she engaged in "Kelpiannibalism," seemingly fairly often.

So, right off the bat, I think it's pretty clear that if Georgiou's claims are accurate, her body count is almost certainly comparable to that of the major real-life genociders such as Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Jackson, Van Buren, Leopold II, successive British viceroys over occupied India, etc. We do not know for sure if her actions led to the extinction of any species -- she does specifically say that the Klingon species survived the destruction of Qo'noS -- but it does seem highly probable that the Mintakans and Talosians were driven extinct by her actions if they are accurately described.

I do think there's a legitimate question over the accuracy of her claims. As Emperor, and subsequently as a de facto prisoner of the Federation and of Section 31 prone to lashing out at others to maintain emotional distance, Mirror Georgiou would have had strong incentive to lie about the severity of her actions.

Bottom line: If her claims are accurate, Mirror Georgiou is indeed a mass murderer and probable genocider on par with Adolf Hitler.

The Guardian of Forever, however, determined that she has made a real and substantive change in its test of her. She really did try to find a better way to govern, and she gave her life for it. That's not redemption, but that also ain't nothin'. And there's something to be said for the idea that she could be forced to continue working for her redemption through compelling her to serve as a Federation agent, rather than just allowing her to sit in a prison cell the rest of her life. She could be every bit a prisoner of the Federation while serving as a forced Starfleet Intelligence operative as she could in a penal colony.

 

[BillJ]

Gill had that luxury; Georgiou did not.

You're swimming pretty deep to try to get Georgiou off the hook for her crimes...

Damndest thing? Is that they could've, with some decent writing, done a redemption arc for Georgiou. But they have no clue how to write a subtle emotional story. They could've had Georgiou replace the dead Shenzhou captain and struggle with her past and how she can keep up the charade then slowly grow as a person. Could've had her see have to walk through a brutal planetary attack, not sitting up high in her flagship, but as a Starfleet captain having to walk through the destruction on a planet.

They just have no foresight and, really, no grasp on drama.

 

[fireproof78]

You're swimming pretty deep to try to get Georgiou off the hook for her crimes...

Not really, no. As I said, this is nothing new to Star Trek.

And I am not excusing her crimes. I am asking how you try her for crimes that the Federation has no authority to try her for, by a standard of morality and law that was not present in her reality? Perhaps Q?

Damndest thing? Is that they could've, with some decent writing, done a redemption arc for Georgiou. But they have no clue how to write a subtle emotional story. They could've had Georgiou replace the dead Shenzhou captain and struggle with her past and how she can keep up the charade then slowly grow as a person. Could've had her see have to walk through a brutal planetary attack, not sitting up high in her flagship, but as a Starfleet captain having to walk through the destruction on a planet.

Could have been interesting. I found the emotions of her story just fine but that's me.

More than that, what disturbs more than that, is the line of when a human is "evolved enough" to earn Trek utopianism. As I see it, barring people for getting to learn and grow and become better is not evolved. Offer up the possibility of change to everyone, to become better. Otherwise, how many other characters are barred from evolutions? Klingons? Kor? Dukat? Garak?

I want to know the line? Who is allowed in and by what standard do we judge all these people? That's what disturbs me. Not that Georgiou is deserving but she at least didn't know the moral thing. Now she does. Now she can be held accountable. She can make a change.

 

[BillJ]

She has to know there is a wrong first.

How great would life be if we could just get off the hook by saying "I didn't know murder was wrong!"

 

[BillJ]

Otherwise, how many other characters are barred from evolutions? Klingons? Kor? Dukat? Garak?

Have you seen me go to bat for any of these characters?

 

[fireproof78]

How great would life be if we could just get off the hook by saying "I didn't know murder was wrong!"

Except we can't. We know the moral system taught to us within the society we have.

We don't know the Terran Empire. How do you apply our morality to that world?

Have you seen me go to bat for any of these characters?

My point is this is not new to Trek. In fact, Dukat was changed because of the positive reception he got from the audience.

Is that terrifying? Are we to "reap what we sow" with such villainous characters being portrayed so positively in Trek?

 

[BillJ]

Except we can't. We know the moral system taught to us within the society we have.

No. Everybody obviously knows different things, as seen in the Affluenza legal defense.

We don't know the Terran Empire. How do you apply our morality to that world?

Because we know they had morality in that world, we saw it throughout the Mirror Universe episodes that a great many people knew right from wrong.

Are we to "reap what we sow" with such villainous characters being portrayed so positively in Trek?

Ever wonder why so many white conservatives are Star Trek fans?

 

[fireproof78]

Because we know they had morality in that world, we saw it throughout the Mirror Universe episodes that a great many people knew right from wrong.

So Georgiou must know that? Therefore she should be sent back and tried for her crimes? That seems reasonable.

Ever wonder why so many white conservatives are Star Trek fans?

Don't know. Don't care. That is outside the scope of this debate.

 

[BillJ]

So Georgiou must know that? Therefore she should be sent back and tried for her crimes? That seems reasonable.

So the crimes against millions really don't count? Because they are 'other' their lives are meaningless from the Federation's perspective?

 

[Sci]

And I am not excusing her crimes. I am asking how you try her for crimes that the Federation has no authority to try her for, by a standard of morality and law that was not present in her reality?

I mean, the Allies tried the Nazi leaders for actions they undertook that were perfectly legal in the territory they controlled, by a standard of morality and law that was not present in the Third Reich. So too did the State of Israel when it tried Adolf Eichmann.

I would argue that the Allies and Israel had every right to do so, because some things are so immoral that they transcend legalism.

And I think it's pretty obvious that the Terrans knew their acts of mass murder and genocide were wrong, because their victims continued to advance moral arguments against them in numerous rebellions that persisted over almost 110 years. It's not like the idea that this was immoral was absent from Terran culture; it's that Terran culture rejected equal rights out of fear.

 

[BillJ]

I mean, the Allies tried the Nazi leaders for actions they undertook...

The shame is that people like Wernher von Braun didn't hang with rest of them.

 

[fireproof78]

So the crimes against millions really don't count? Because they are 'other' their lives are meaningless from the Federation's perspective?

Didn't say that. I want to find the venue in which Georgiou can be tried. How does the Federation try her? By all means, try her. Please. I just want to know the moral standard being applied and did Georgiou know it.

And I think it's pretty obvious that the Terrans knew their acts of mass murder and genocide were wrong, because their victims continued to advance moral arguments against them in numerous rebellions that persisted over almost 110 years. It's not like the idea that this was immoral was absent from Terran culture; it's that Terran culture rejected equal rights out of fear.

I mean...I guess? I am more than willing to send Georgiou back to the Mirror Universe and have her tried for her crimes.

Death is preferable to rehabilitation.

 

[BillJ]

I want to find the venue in which Georgiou can be tried.

As @Sci pointed out, with real world precedent, she can be tried in the Federation.

Death is preferable to rehabilitation.

Nobody said she needed to be executed. But she does need to pay for her crimes in some manner.

 

[fireproof78]

As @Sci pointed out, with real world precedent, she can be tried in the Federation.

Go for it. I'm all for it, please.

I just believe that rehabilitation is also possible. After all, is the Federation going to execute her?