Spoilers Section 31 General Discussion Thread

[Ray Hardgrit]

Hell using Discovery while we have fewer characters that are primary characters of the show, it actually is the show that gave the full compliment of people stationed on the bridge more material to work with than any other Trek series. There are fewer bridge stations with people who are literally extras. The vast majority have had at least a bit of dialogue. That is not true of the majority of the rest of Trek.

This is the problem right here. They messed up by bringing the same people back and giving them enough screen time so that we started recognising familiar faces. They weren't walking behind the leads in corridors or whatever, they played a crucial part in major events on the bridge. Hardcore fans could point to all the appearances of Leslie or Jae or Ayala in the other shows, but for most viewers they were anonymous.

 

[fireproof78]

Hell using Discovery while we have fewer characters that are primary characters of the show, it actually is the show that gave the full compliment of people stationed on the bridge more material to work with than any other Trek series. There are fewer bridge stations with people who are literally extras (ie no dialogue of any kind). The vast majority have had at least a bit of dialogue. That is not true of the majority of the rest of Trek.

And I can name most of them, which is better than most TNG, TOS or even the Kelvin films, which I like.

 

[Turtletrekker]

ETA: GOD DAMN IT, AM I GOING TO WRITE A SECTION 31 FANFICTION?

Yes. Yes, I did.

Section 31: Echoes of the Past, Shadows of the Future (First Draft)

Yes, I wrote a Section 31 fanfic. Deal with it. :lol: This is the first piece of fiction that I have written in two decades, with first draft coming at just under 4,000 words, so be understanding, if not kind. Things I added to the Section 31 concept include "Scuttlebutt" and a Cloakship. I...

www.trekbbs.com

 

[The Wormhole]

How?

Riker tells Deanna a "secret group within Starfleet Security" was behind what happened on The Pegasus. Braga has said this was meant to be a reference to Section 31, which Memory Alpha accepts, and we all know how they feel about "strictly canonical only."

 

[NCC-73515]

I'm intrigued as to why the Terrans did a hunger games selection process. Perhaps an heirless leader died of natural causes (a rarity no doubt) and no one could easily take control. Celebrate the Empire by finding the purest youth and if they suck then we'll kill them anyway.

Also makes you wonder about the ruler between Georgiou and Spock and the poor ones who oversaw the Empire's demise at the hands of the KCA now they had a bad day.

Previous emperor resigned, was too sick, died of natural causes, a challenger died with him,... whoever sheds the most blood rules, so they held a blood shedding contest

 

[Tosk]

which Memory Alpha accepts

Where?

I cannot find a reference to this on the pages for These Are the Voyages, The Pegasus, Section 31, or the U.S.S. Pegasus.

 

[Tuskin38]

Where?

I cannot find a reference to this on the pages for These Are the Voyages, The Pegasus, Section 31, or the U.S.S. Pegasus.

Same here

Even on Memory-Beta I can't find a Section 31 connection, only that Pressman was recruited after he was arrested in TNG.

The TOS Year Four comics had Section 31 with a phase cloak, but that was the 23rd Century.

Though, Memory-Beta isn't as complete as Memory-Alpha is.

 

[The Wormhole]

Where?

I cannot find a reference to this on the pages for These Are the Voyages, The Pegasus, Section 31, or the U.S.S. Pegasus.

Ah, I see, it was on the page for TATV but going through the page's history, I see it was edited out years ago.

 

[mswood]

This is the problem right here. They messed up by bringing the same people back and giving them enough screen time so that we started recognising familiar faces. They weren't walking behind the leads in corridors or whatever, they played a crucial part in major events on the bridge. Hardcore fans could point to all the appearances of Leslie or Jae or Ayala in the other shows, but for most viewers they were anonymous.

Ray
You do realize that TNG, DS(, VOY and ENT used the same extras (non speaking) for more episodes that what Discovery produced.

Shows especially like ENT (which only had a handful of means of getting replacements besides the couple of times going back to Earth, and VOY which had no means of getting replacement crew persons (and both with rather a small crew compliment made a huge mistake in not doing what Discovery did. You should have shown the same people (be it people in corridors or slightly more expanded roles). Voyager and ENT actually have more unique crew persons than they have crew compliment. ENT could for years 1 to end of 2, might have had a Vulcan ship deliver replacements, but Voyager sorry not possible.

And realistically how is this a problem, A significant portion of Trek's fandom is from a show that was created in the 60's. Where the reoccurring cast (Uhura, Scotty, Sulu, Chekov and Chapel) are not well defined, fleshed out characters. The reason was because for the most part you were supposed to be following Kirk or Spock (to a far lesser degree McCoy). Everything was in service to those characters. And it worked. Trek was not an ensemble cast. No through the decades with novels and speculations fans greatly enhanced those characters. But the show didn't. And you see very few people bitch about that.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

The problem is that when a series gives a character more appearances and more focus, viewers want to see them more involved in the story as a person. If I started talking about Jemison, Asha or Gallo, no one would know who they are, even though they sat in Owo and Detmer's seats in season 5 and said all their lines. No one dislikes them, but no one thinks about them either. They served their purpose in the episode without being a distraction.

But Owo and Detmer showed up every episode and became more like TNG O'Brien-tier characters in the viewers' eyes. The difference is that TNG would give O'Brien extra little character moments. He'd make quips in the transporter room, he popped up every now and then to play cello, or get his kayaking injury healed, or to attend Worf's Rite of Ascension... he was there as a person. We got some of that in Disco season 3 when Detmer had issues after slamming her head in the crash, but then they stopped again.

So, there was a problem there. And writing them out solved it.

 

[fireproof78]

If we had more episodes then it could work.

We didn't do the focus is on the main characters. It's not a problem; just the nature of the beast as secondary characters.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The problem is that when a series gives a character more appearances and more focus, viewers want to see them more involved in the story as a person. If I started talking about Jemison, Asha or Gallo, no one would know who they are, even though they sat in Owo and Detmer's seats in season 5 and said all their lines. No one dislikes them, but no one thinks about them either. They served their purpose in the episode without being a distraction.

But Owo and Detmer showed up every episode and became more like TNG O'Brien-tier characters in the viewers' eyes. The difference is that TNG would give O'Brien extra little character moments. He'd make quips in the transporter room, he popped up every now and then to play cello, or get his kayaking injury healed, or to attend Worf's Rite of Ascension... he was there as a person. We got some of that in Disco season 3 when Detmer had issues after slamming her head in the crash, but then they stopped again.

So, there was a problem there. And writing them out solved it.

Owo and Detmer aren't at O'Brien's level. I don't think they got episodes like "The Wounded" or "Data's Day" Sitting on the bridge, pushing buttons and shouting exposition don't really make them "worthy."

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

O'Brien didn't get stories like that until 80 episodes in either. It was a surprise when The Wounded gave him so much focus. Usually he just popped up in a scene or two and had a couple of lines.

 

[fireproof78]

Owo and Detmer aren't at O'Brien's level. I don't think they got episodes like "The Wounded" or "Data's Day" Sitting on the bridge, pushing buttons and shouting exposition don't really make them "worthy."

There is nothing that makes a character worthy, nor are any characters deserving more than what the story requires.

That is the nature of writing.

 

[Citiprime]

O'Brien didn't get stories like that until 80 episodes in either. It was a surprise when The Wounded gave him so much focus. Usually he just popped up in a scene or two and had a couple of lines.

Another example of this is Leeta and Rom on DS9.

They're not main characters. They start out as background chacters. They had very limited screentime as supporting characters, with fewer appearances on DS9 than Detmer and Owo had for DSC. And, yet, by the end of DS9 they had made them fully realized characters in their own right that people understood beyond being a "Dabo girl" or "Quark's brother."

 

[Nerys Myk]

O'Brien didn't get stories like that until 80 episodes in either. It was a surprise when The Wounded gave him so much focus. Usually he just popped up in a scene or two and had a couple of lines.

If DISCO had run eight plus years, maybe they would have. I doubt it, neither actress was at Meany’s level. They aren’t going to inspire writers to think, “let’s give them more to do. “

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Not every Trek show prioritizes the same bridge positions for prominent characters. TOS didn’t have a regular Ops or Tactical officer. TNG didn’t have the dedicated Science, Navigator, Communications officers TOS had, and so on. It always depends on what the writers want to focus on as the regular main cast. In the instance of Discovery with its first season, the only spots we got filled in by regulars were for Captain, XO, Cadet Trainee, Science, and Security, with Burnham being a “Specialist” in that season. Everyone else was either recurring guest or “co-stars”.

And that’s fine. Disco had its issues, but I wouldn’t say not having a dedicated character as Chief Engineer in the first season was among them.

 

[The Wormhole]

But Owo and Detmer showed up every episode and became more like TNG O'Brien-tier characters in the viewers' eyes. The difference is that TNG would give O'Brien extra little character moments.

But again, when O'Brien was on TNG, he was billed as a Guest Star, while Detmer and Owo were only billed as Co-Stars throughout Disco's entire run. Now you go on about "the audience doesn't pay attention to how actors are credited" which I personally disagree with, but that's irrelevant to the matter at hand, which is the writers and producers very much do pay attention to those details, and as long as someone is listed as "Co-Star" they are the lowest possible priority characters to do anything with. And with that in mind, Disco did in fact do more with both characters than it was required or even expected to.

To go back to my previous Stargate example, Walter Harriman was present for nearly every episode for all ten seasons of SG-1, the two SG-1 DVD movies, and even had a recurring presence in the spin-off shows. Sgt. Siler was introduced near the end of SG-1's first season and likewise showed up quite frequently remainder of the series and appeared in one of the DVD movies as well as a couple episodes of Atlantis, yet you never see Stargate fans whining about Walter and Siler never getting anything important to do the way people around here cry about Detmer and Owo being "neglected."

 

[Jayson1]

Owo and Detmer aren't at O'Brien's level. I don't think they got episodes like "The Wounded" or "Data's Day" Sitting on the bridge, pushing buttons and shouting exposition don't really make them "worthy."

I think the problem is fans wanted to see more from the characters. That is actually a good thing and you would think the writers would think"You know the fans seem to like these characters. I think we should try and give them more to do." I see it as a example of a show making a change in plans and going with stuff that is working. Discovery was a show that seemed to not get a clue as to what fans didn't like and still ran with it. I feel like good shows adapt and embrace change and also dump aspects that may be they thought would work but is just not working well with the fans.

 

[Yistaan]

Riker tells Deanna a "secret group within Starfleet Security" was behind what happened on The Pegasus. Braga has said this was meant to be a reference to Section 31, which Memory Alpha accepts, and we all know how they feel about "strictly canonical only."

Young Erik Pressman as the Starfleet officer probably makes more sense than young Rachel Garrett for Section 31 honestly. Assuming that Pressman was circa 70 when he showed up on TNG (yes much older than his actor at the time but whatever), it works.