Spoilers Section 31: Control by David Mack Review Thread

[stardream]

Just finished.
What a great read. Enjoyed every minute of it except the end where Bashir is left a broken shell of a man. While I didn't hate Sarina I never really connected with her so her loss isn't that big of a shock or disappointment, however, I appreciate how her loss affected Basir. I HOPE his story is picked up and not left dangling for years.
Good to see Data and Lal. I've been enjoying their adventures and growing relationship.
I have mixed feelings concerning Control. On the one hand, it answers a lot of questions but on the other hand, does this mean that everything everyone has done ever in the Star Trek Universe means...nothing? Did Control slingshot Voyager into the Delta Quadrant for some bizarre reason? Does it interfere with DTI?

I HOPE all this doesn't disappear into the ether. I HOPE that...(can't go there because it's a story idea. )

Anyway, great read. Thumbs up, five stars and all that.

 

[Idran]

On the one hand, it answers a lot of questions but on the other hand, does this mean that everything everyone has done ever in the Star Trek Universe means...nothing? Did Control slingshot Voyager into the Delta Quadrant for some bizarre reason?

Well, I mean, Control wasn't omniscient. She could only know things that would have been knowable using resources available to her. All resources, sure, but I'm not sure how, even conceptually, the existence of the Caretaker would have been knowable by even the combination of all resources available to the Federation at the time.

She could still get taken by surprise. The various MU incursions, for example, couldn't have been foreseen in advance through intelligence. The Kelvans coming from Andromeda couldn't have been. The Neyel, species 8472, the Q. She still had limitations.

 

[Christopher]

I don't think Uraei made things happen so much as prevented things from happening -- negated threats before they arose, or made sure that the proper human resources were in place to cope with those threats. The work that humanity and other Federation members did to make things better was genuine, but Uraei used more unsalutary methods to neutralize the efforts of those working against that improvement. (Although its actions may have been a factor in the Earth/human dominance of the Federation, since it was built to protect the interests of Earth and humanity.) So while Uraei's actions may tarnish the accomplishments of humanity in achieving enlightenment, they don't totally invalidate them.

Also, Uraei was only really able to directly manipulate events on Earth and other worlds where its code was fully integrated into the technological infrastructure, so mainly just in the Federation. The shows mostly follow ships and crews operating outside the Federation, so while Uraei was able to monitor them through their ships' computers, its ability to influence the crises they faced and the actions they took on the frontier would've been limited. So it wouldn't have had that great an effect over the majority of canonical Trek stories.

 

[stardream]

I don't think Uraei made things happen so much as prevented things from happening -- negated threats before they arose, or made sure that the proper human resources were in place to cope with those threats. The work that humanity and other Federation members did to make things better was genuine, but Uraei used more unsalutary methods to neutralize the efforts of those working against that improvement. (Although its actions may have been a factor in the Earth/human dominance of the Federation, since it was built to protect the interests of Earth and humanity.) So while Uraei's actions may tarnish the accomplishments of humanity in achieving enlightenment, they don't totally invalidate them.

Also, Uraei was only really able to directly manipulate events on Earth and other worlds where its code was fully integrated into the technological infrastructure, so mainly just in the Federation. The shows mostly follow ships and crews operating outside the Federation, so while Uraei was able to monitor them through their ships' computers, its ability to influence the crises they faced and the actions they took on the frontier would've been limited. So it wouldn't have had that great an effect over the majority of canonical Trek stories.

So it's the Machine in Person of Interest rather than Samaritan?

 

[Christopher]

So it's the Machine in Person of Interest rather than Samaritan?

Oh, by no means. That is absolutely not what I meant to suggest. The Machine's overriding priority was to protect individual lives. Uraei's perception of individual lives as disposable for the sake of the greater good is the same as Samaritan's philosophy -- or that of Project Northern Lights and Control (the Camryn Manheim character, not the title character of this novel) in how they used the Machine's information. The whole reason Harold Finch started his private operation with the Machine was because he rejected that mentality.

So morally, Uraei was entirely in Samaritan's camp, as corrupt as it was. It was just more subtle about it, content to intervene surgically and selectively rather than actively seeking to micromanage and manipulate every aspect of human life. I'm absolutely not saying what Uraei did was anything less than evil; I'm just trying to salvage the good of what the Federation is, to argue that the accomplishments of humanity in making the world better still mattered despite the evil that Uraei was committing in the name of helping it along. I'm saying that Uraei's control of events was not absolute, that it didn't cause everything that ever happened in the Trek universe, or even most of it. It was evil, but its reach was finite.

 

[Idran]

You know, all the talk about Person of Interest in this thread is making me curious to finally check it out too.

 

[rahullak]

You know, all the talk about Person of Interest in this thread is making me curious to finally check it out too.

It might not blow your mind now that you've read Control. But it's still quite a ride, especially the early seasons.

 

[stardream]

Oh, by no means. That is absolutely not what I meant to suggest. The Machine's overriding priority was to protect individual lives. Uraei's perception of individual lives as disposable for the sake of the greater good is the same as Samaritan's philosophy -- or that of Project Northern Lights and Control (the Camryn Manheim character, not the title character of this novel) in how they used the Machine's information. The whole reason Harold Finch started his private operation with the Machine was because he rejected that mentality.

So morally, Uraei was entirely in Samaritan's camp, as corrupt as it was. It was just more subtle about it, content to intervene surgically and selectively rather than actively seeking to micromanage and manipulate every aspect of human life. I'm absolutely not saying what Uraei did was anything less than evil; I'm just trying to salvage the good of what the Federation is, to argue that the accomplishments of humanity in making the world better still mattered despite the evil that Uraei was committing in the name of helping it along. I'm saying that Uraei's control of events was not absolute, that it didn't cause everything that ever happened in the Trek universe, or even most of it. It was evil, but its reach was finite.

I think I get what you're trying to say. Everyone's actions DO Matter.

You know, all the talk about Person of Interest in this thread is making me curious to finally check it out too.

We are finishing up on the final season. It's been a wild ride. A mystery, flashbacks, a great conspiracy-a bit like LOST, even with Michael Emmerson playing a good guy. The great thing about it is, unlike LOST, the writers tie things together. Plot elements and characters are constantly being re-introduced and threads picked back up again. Yes, it will remind you of CONTROL.

 

[Christopher]

I'd say Person of Interest was vastly more coherent and intelligent than LOST. It wasn't just making stuff up as it went for the sake of superficial mystery, but had clear and cohesive ideas driving it, with the developments in later seasons being entirely logical consequences of what had been set up right from the start. It was rather slow to grow beyond its case-of-the-week crime-procedural/spy-conspiracy beginnings, thanks to network pressure, so the larger exploration of the ramifications of AI beyond just a magic crime-solving tool didn't really begin until the end of season 2. But it's a series that definitely rewards patience, and it's one of the smartest, most prescient science fiction series of the 21st century, even if a lot of people out there don't even realize it was science fiction.

 

[Sci]

The presumable point of divergence was that, but I see it as the point of divergence having been earlier, and events having been largely similar up to that point, where the sudden skew was Paxton succeeding rather than failing in part because of the lack of Uraei.

Not saying it's the only difference, not that "if it wasn't for Uraei, no Federation at all". Just that Paxton's massive success as someone who should've been a known and closely-observed entity to Uraei to me kind of implies a lack of Uraei's presence, given what was presented of its capabilities by the point of "Terra Prime".

And given the nature of the whole Myriad Universes concept, they obviously couldn't explicitly say in the text what the divergence point was (except for "Places of Exile"), so that makes what the divergence actually was up for interpretation.

Ah, gotcha. Totally fair interpretation then!

 

[Tuskin38]

Trek Core has put up a review

http://trekcore.com/blog/2017/05/review-star-trek-section-31-control/

 

[JWolf]

We don't SHUSH HERE!

It has to be written in the correct accent.
Ve dunt SHOOSH HERE!

 

[JWolf]

I have no plans for a continuation of this story arc at this time, nor do I know of one in development. I am also no longer under contract with Star Trek, having delivered a couple of weeks ago the last item (my Star Trek: Discovery manuscript) required by my contract. While I look forward to future Star Trek book projects, I have none planned at this time.

I hope you do get more contracts. I would love to have a follow up to Control. It's a fantastic book and I would love to find out what happens next.

 

[JWolf]

Can't read this thread until I read the book, but can anyone quote-reply and tell me if I need to read any other books to undersand this one? I haven't kept up with the new books since the Andorian Typhon Pact novel and David Mack's trilogy with Data and his father..

Reading the Cold Equations books would help a lot.

 

[DimesDan]

Reading the Cold Equations books would help a lot.

Which would be the: David Mack's trilogy with Data and his father.

If you're still wondering @Smellincoffee, you may want to catch up on Disavowed, other than that, you should be golden to jump straight in.

 

[kktwin]

Just finished up. Quite shaken to think Uraei and Control could have been behind so many of my much-loved episodes of trek!

David Mack delivered a goodie here.

 

[Christopher]

Just finished up. Quite shaken to think Uraei and Control could have been behind so many of my much-loved episodes of trek!

As I mentioned before, I'm not sure how many actual Trek episodes this would've affected. Uraei mainly had control over events on worlds that had pervasive Federation technology, so it wouldn't have had much influence in frontier settings such as those generally frequented by starships named Enterprise. I'd imagine it had little influence over anything that happened on Voyager, since only the ship itself had the requisite software aboard, and it would've been out of touch with the overall AI until Project Pathfinder came along, so I doubt there would've been any guiding intelligence directing it to do much of anything. The main influence would've been on stories happening within the territory of the Federation or allied powers -- so maybe DS9 would be the series most affected by Uraei's existence overall, then TNG somewhat less so, then ENT, then TOS (more the movies than the series), and finally VGR.

 

[Hardtarget]

Aaaand done.

Man that was a great book. I'll have to go through this thread but I imagine some people are going to have big problems with it since it.... retcons I suppose, almost everything ever that has ever happened ever? lol

Tons of fun though.

 

[Hardtarget]

Hm, I guess there is no edit button?

Forgot to say, I totally didn't realize that this was for all intents and purposes a sequel to Immortal Coil/Cold Equations/The Light Fantastic alongside the previous Bashir story.

What a fantastic surprise that was to have Data and Lal roped in on this as I had figured they wouldn't be in any books again for quite some time.

 

[DimesDan]

Hm, I guess there is no edit button?

There is, you're new so you don't have that ability yet.