For the sake of rather major straying, I started a separate thread for this discussion....
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/litverse-star-trek-09.287513/
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/litverse-star-trek-09.287513/
Spoilers Section 31: Control by David Mack Review Thread
- Thread starter Defcon
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Thank you @MadeIndescribable - I was just typing a request for that 
Just saw, by chance, an episode of a TV show called Person of Interest. It's like Uraei existing in 21st century USA, but focussed on crime-fighting and counter-terrorism.
Looks like we're getting more authors thinking along the lines of benign but ethically ambiguous artificial intelligence cum surveillance.
Looks like we're getting more authors thinking along the lines of benign but ethically ambiguous artificial intelligence cum surveillance.
Yeah, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Person of Interest had been an influence on this book. It sounds like you saw an early episode -- in later seasons, it ends up going to places rather similar to those explored in Control.
I finished reading Control this afternoon. I'm struggling to decide how I feel about it.
The Person of Interest influence was really, really blatant. I loved Person of Interest, and I love Star Trek. I really don't know how I feel about merging the two and essentially rewriting the history of the Star Trek universe. It made Section 31 feel all-powerful, and expanding way out of the scope of what we saw in the TV show.
Unlike many (it would seem, reading this thread), I actually did like Sarina, and I'm sorry to see her go.
As a novel, I enjoyed it - though every time there was talk of rootkits and other descriptions of how its software (or their solution) worked, I cringed. I hate writers/tv trying to do technology.
I'm just feeling it went too far in undermining the past (and future?) of the Trek universe.
The Person of Interest influence was really, really blatant. I loved Person of Interest, and I love Star Trek. I really don't know how I feel about merging the two and essentially rewriting the history of the Star Trek universe. It made Section 31 feel all-powerful, and expanding way out of the scope of what we saw in the TV show.
Unlike many (it would seem, reading this thread), I actually did like Sarina, and I'm sorry to see her go.
As a novel, I enjoyed it - though every time there was talk of rootkits and other descriptions of how its software (or their solution) worked, I cringed. I hate writers/tv trying to do technology.
I'm just feeling it went too far in undermining the past (and future?) of the Trek universe.
Me too, I felt it did a complete disservice to how humanity overcame its flaws and formed the Federation, and therefore essentially what Star Trek is all about.
I loved the book and cant wait to see the fall out in the coming novels. So many fundamentally decent people who made the best decisions they could at the time are going to have some hard questions to answer.
BTW the plan for a completely integrated smart appliance smart wired house is now on the back burner
BTW the plan for a completely integrated smart appliance smart wired house is now on the back burner
I just want to reiterate that I do not think the revelations in Control invalidate the entire Federation or Star Trek's optimistic view of humanity. As I said before, I think Uraei sped things up, but humanity would have reached a point of unity and then joined with the rest of their partner worlds to create something like the Federation eventually. And others have pointed out in this thread numerous instances where Uraei failed -- I think it's clear it was not as all-powerful as it liked to imagine "its selves" as being.
ETA: I do, however, think that Uraei gives TrekLit an excuse for why the nominally egalitarian Federation tends to be so human-centric/Earth-centric. It gives an explanation for a preexisting flaw in the canon that already contradicted its basic ethos.
ETA: I do, however, think that Uraei gives TrekLit an excuse for why the nominally egalitarian Federation tends to be so human-centric/Earth-centric. It gives an explanation for a preexisting flaw in the canon that already contradicted its basic ethos.
Yeah; as was probably obvious by my posts earlier, this was a stumbling block for me in my enjoyment of Control too at first, but in hindsight, in-universe it's not nearly as destructive to the moral validity of United Earth and the Federation as I first thought. It sped up a process that was already rolling strongly along, it wasn't the prime mover.
And I still have my own headcanon that "A Less Perfect Union" is an AU where (among other things) Uraei never existed.
Good strong ride, though at times it did feel as though too much of what had gone on the Federation was in the hands of Uraei, and that the entire Federation would not be as we know it without Uraei thereby somehow diminishing the roles played by all our beloved heroes. It's just a feeling though, didn't affect my enjoyment of the book much.
I seem to remember David Mack telling us we would find out what Control is. But the last few paragraphs of the book make it clear that Uraei is just another pawn of Control, yet there's no explanation of what Control is. Are we seeing a sequel down the line exposing the real Control? Or have I missed something?
I seem to remember David Mack telling us we would find out what Control is. But the last few paragraphs of the book make it clear that Uraei is just another pawn of Control, yet there's no explanation of what Control is. Are we seeing a sequel down the line exposing the real Control? Or have I missed something?
Control was the AI that emerged from Uraei over the centuries. Uraei was basically a vestigal thing that Control couldn't get rid of on her own because Uraei was still so well-integrated with her, so she had to trick others into doing so while thinking it was their own decision.
Edit: And without Uraei finding out as well; important part that I forgot. Basically set things up at an extreme enough remove that Uraei couldn't stop her (because it couldn't project what she was doing) but in such a manner that dominos were guaranteed to fall such that Uraei would end up removed.
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Thanks.
Control is still a malignant entity for the Federation though. All those deaths and wasted resources just to get rid of a vestigial organ, no oversight, full sentience, no scruples. I'd like to see some future story to tie-up that thread.
If we go by what the book showed us - a benign if unscrupulous AI finally bringing rampant Humanity to heel and unity about - I wonder if and how such a thing could be implemented in the real world? It would be a great boon to have Uraei/Control for real.
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Lol, that's a whole other argument. #letsnotgothere
I suppose World War III would end with one of the participants developing ASI and unleashing it against the other parties. Said participant would probably also suffer fate when the ASI decides it doesn't need a master.
Yeah; as was probably obvious by my posts earlier, this was a stumbling block for me in my enjoyment of Control too at first, but in hindsight, in-universe it's not nearly as destructive to the moral validity of United Earth and the Federation as I first thought. It sped up a process that was already rolling strongly along, it wasn't the prime mover.
And I still have my own headcanon that "A Less Perfect Union" is an AU where (among other things) Uraei never existed.
Well, if I remember correctly, the point of divergence for A Less Perfect Union came in "Demons/Terra Prime." So up until that point, everything -- up to and including the final unification of Earth in 2150, just one year before the NX-01 was launched -- was the same.
Given that, it is almost impossible for Uraei not to have existed.... But who's to say Uraei survived?
It's entirely possible that in the course of that universe's United Earth's conflict with the Interstellar Coalition, Coalition scientists detected and dismantled Uraei from their systems. Maybe they event sent out a virus to destroy Uraei in Human and other computer systems to boot. Might help explain why the Interstellar Coalition seems to have the upper hand over United Earth in spite of Uraei having previously infiltrated its founding worlds' internets.
You have completely missed the point of this novel if your takeaway was, "An amoral computer program answerable to no one ought to be allowed to spy on every single person simultaneously and occasionally decide governmental policy with no system of democratic accountability or checks and balances."
I mean, seriously, think about what you just said. Uraei, for all of its capacities, is ultimately just a person. What you basically just said was not substantively different from saying, "A benevolent dictator would be the best form of government."
Well, sure, in a hypothetical world where a dictator can be benevolent. But it is the nature of dictatorship that the dictator ceases to be benevolent; the more unaccountable a person in power is, the less benevolent he or she becomes. Absolute power really does corrupt; the interests of the dictator cease to be the welfare of the people and becomes the welfare of the state in the person of the dictator.
Now, we are fortunate that in real life, even dictatorships are never truly absolute -- all dictators rely upon the loyalties of key lieutenants, who in turn rely on the loyalties of their key lieutenants, who in turn rely upon the loyalties of their key lieutenants, and so on down the line; and the dictator must fear the potential for a rival dictator to put together a winning coalition of lieutenants. So even in authoritarian systems, the dictator's power is checked (by sub-dictators and potential rival dictators); this is still deeply abusive and tyrannical, but it is still better than a person with genuinely absolute power.
But an ASI given the kind of power Uraei had? It wouldn't even rely upon other A.I.s to keep itself going or in its position of power, the way flesh-and-blood dictators rely on their lieutenants. It would have even less accountability than a real-life dictator.
There is no way in hell an ASI like that would not become irrational and self-interested with that kind of power. There is no way an ASI with that kind of power could ever be trusted to remain "benevolent."
The fact that Uraei/Control even had any remnants of benevolence towards Earth and the UFP by the end of Control is itself an exceedingly optimistic depiction, I think.
The presumable point of divergence was that, but I see it as the point of divergence having been earlier, and events having been largely similar up to that point, where the sudden skew was Paxton succeeding rather than failing in part because of the lack of Uraei.
Not saying it's the only difference, not that "if it wasn't for Uraei, no Federation at all". Just that Paxton's massive success as someone who should've been a known and closely-observed entity to Uraei to me kind of implies a lack of Uraei's presence, given what was presented of its capabilities by the point of "Terra Prime".
And given the nature of the whole Myriad Universes concept, they obviously couldn't explicitly say in the text what the divergence point was (except for "Places of Exile"), so that makes what the divergence actually was up for interpretation.
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