Spoilers Season Two Canon Connections

[Timo]

We still lack a clear picture of how any of that would have been special in any fashion.

First contact with folks? The galaxy has an endless supply of folks to be contacted. Were Kirk's somehow better than the others'? Or if it's purely quantitative, how much of a lead could Kirk have over his competition to become "historic"?

Defeating an enemy? Everybody does that in every spinoff. Ancient or long-idled enemies seem to be common enough a trope, too, and the current set of heroes was at it as well. Putting the Klingons in their place was something the Enterprise missed out on this time around, but other Constitutions might have played a role, and other types of ship certainly did.

Dealing with cloaks doesn't appear too exotic, either, as every hero since Archer has tackled those...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Agony_Boothb]

We still lack a clear picture of how any of that would have been special in any fashion.

First contact with folks? The galaxy has an endless supply of folks to be contacted. Were Kirk's somehow better than the others'? Or if it's purely quantitative, how much of a lead could Kirk have over his competition to become "historic"?

Defeating an enemy? Everybody does that in every spinoff. Ancient or long-idled enemies seem to be common enough a trope, too, and the current set of heroes was at it as well. Putting the Klingons in their place was something the Enterprise missed out on this time around, but other Constitutions might have played a role, and other types of ship certainly did.

Dealing with cloaks doesn't appear too exotic, either, as every hero since Archer has tackled those...

Timo Saloniemi

What do you want from us? How are any of us supposed to know why Kirk's mission was historic when all any of us have to go on is what the writers tell us. If it's such a concern, ask the writers or make up your own reason instead of dumping on everyone's attempts to answer your question.

 

[Timo]

Sorry if this came off as a dumping. I guess what I want is answers, but since I know I can't get them, what I secondarily want (that is, "want from you" or want introduced to the discussion) is acknowledging that there's a question there. To the audience, Kirk may appear impressive and historic and all - but since we now watch another set of heroes from the same era, and have Saru's nifty list of heroes of the recent past, we just have to wonder what makes Kirk stand apart.

Of course, it may still be pure audience bias. It's young Icheb who claims the mission would have been historic, and he's but a spectator, somebody who already knows Kirk as a household name and savior of Earth. Possibly most if not all of the five-year missions of the mid-23rd century were historic. But only one of them was conducted by Kirk.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[StefanM]

That's the reason, why only the legendary ships get their TV shows.
For three years, Sulu's Excelsior almost did nothing but cartography nebulas in the beta quadrant. Therefore we never got the USS Excelsior / Captain Sulu TV series.
Sisko himself said it: He wasn't interested in some boring space station at an even more boring planet. But then, the wormhole appeared, and...... we got our TV show

 

[Lance]

Kirk's tour of duty was historic for reasons of time, place and momentum of events, not necessarily for simply being a 5 year mission.

Indeed, there are other constitution class starships in TOS that are probably on similarly length missions. The critical line of thinking has been mostly that the Enterprise survived it's five year mission where other ships perished, which is why the ship is legendary by the time the movies roll around.

If the likes of USS Constellation or USS Exeter had've survived five years out there and made it back, the Enterprise legend wouldn't have grown. Yet, we (canonically now) know Enterprise survived not only 5 years under Kirk, but 11 under Pike and probably 5 under April.

 

[zar]

Well it looks like the Enterprise picked up someone new during Pike's 5 year mission, considering Spock wasn't there and there were still 203 life signs. Or was someone else on vacation during The Cage?

 

[DaveyNY]

Sorry if this came off as a dumping. I guess what I want is answers, but since I know I can't get them, what I secondarily want (that is, "want from you" or want introduced to the discussion) is acknowledging that there's a question there. To the audience, Kirk may appear impressive and historic and all - but since we now watch another set of heroes from the same era, and have Saru's nifty list of heroes of the recent past, we just have to wonder what makes Kirk stand apart.

Of course, it may still be pure audience bias. It's young Icheb who claims the mission would have been historic, and he's but a spectator, somebody who already knows Kirk as a household name and savior of Earth. Possibly most if not all of the five-year missions of the mid-23rd century were historic. But only one of them was conducted by Kirk.

Timo Saloniemi

"...Kirk as a household name and savior of Earth."

You just answered your own question with the above bolded section of your post.
Something doesn't become "Historic" till enough time passes for folks to consider it such.

Even though for 'Us', Kirk and the Original Series Episodes are the 'Future', from what Roddenberry expressed after the fact, it is a narrative that is actually being told from the shows future looking back.

Thus, we get the perspective of a 5 Year Mission that is considered as surpassing any other one.

 

[Tim Thomason]

Well, the Romulan and Klingon stuff is super-historic enough that if nothing else happened in his career, Kirk should be viewed as a top-tier figure. But we also know that he apparently made the most first contacts and also the most temporal violations (time travel being something not regularly seen before, also propelling him into history).

And, of course, he did have a later career, consisting of saving Earth a couple times, the Khitomer conspiracy, and "dying" heroically after saving a ship. A good biographer or serial novelist could propel Kirk's name into superstardom and the ultimate, romanticized example of a starship captain.

Picard just didn't get around to reading this biography until after The Naked Now.

Well it looks like the Enterprise picked up someone new during Pike's 5 year mission, considering Spock wasn't there and there were still 203 life signs. Or was someone else on vacation during The Cage?

Lt. Commander Connolly outranks Lieutenant Spock and has his same job. So, I assume that he transferred on during Spock's leave and wasn't a permanent member of the crew.

 

[Timo]

"...Kirk as a household name and savior of Earth."

You just answered your own question with the above bolded section of your post.
Something doesn't become "Historic" till enough time passes for folks to consider it such.

But that's Kirk becoming historic, and dragging his five-year mission to fame with him.

Which brings us back to the one aspect of this I'm so intrigued about: was the 5YM itself worth anything? We now have new data on it not having been unique, and also data on the skipper of another 5YM being among Starfleet's Most Decorated. So perhaps we get actual answers eventually, too?

Well, the Romulan and Klingon stuff is super-historic enough that if nothing else happened in his career, Kirk should be viewed as a top-tier figure.

Not seeing this, I'm afraid. Kirk was spectating when the Organians ended a Klingon warlet. We now see Burnham was there when an actual Klingon war started and ended, and she started and ended it. If people not even mentioned in TOS or later shows, and not on 5YMs, get to be that historic, what hope does Kirk have?

(Of course, the Burnham deal was so embarrassing that it may have been classified for good. Indeed, any mention of her mutiny seems suppressed.)

But we also know that he apparently made the most first contacts and also the most temporal violations (time travel being something not regularly seen before, also propelling him into history).

And there we run into the above issue in inverse - could Kirk's reputation be built on something that must be top secret? The time travel bit, that is.

Picard just didn't get around to reading this biography until after The Naked Now.

And the real question is, was this because he was so busy with the biographies of the equally great Captains Dunsel and Herbert?

Lt. Commander Connolly outranks Lieutenant Spock and has his same job. So, I assume that he transferred on during Spock's leave and wasn't a permanent member of the crew.

Umm, Connolly appears to be mere Lieutenant, with the appropriate single braid. He's also addressed as one, and self-addressed as one, whereas Lieutenant Commander should always be called Commander and the guy no doubt would insist on referring to himself as one at least.

Which one had seniority at Lieutenant rank, we can't readily tell. But if Connolly is the stand-in, it would make sense for him to be the junior of the two, unless we want to decide he's a new arrival. Which takes us back to the nature of 5YMs, and on whether "The Cage" was part of one, and whether one would commonly allow for crew rotation.

Fancy that Pike would choose or warrant a mere Lieutenant as his sciences chief when his other top officers appear to be of higher rank now, #1 having gotten a promotion to Lieutenant Commander, and full Commander Nhan being an unknown quantity, possibly but not necessarily an unseen presence in "The Cage" already.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DigificWriter]

Connolly's rank was Lieutenant, not Lieutenant Commander, so, no, he didn't outrank Spock.

I've also seen/heard people mistakenly identify Nhan as a Command officer when she's clearly identified as an Engineer when she, Pike, and Connolly beam over.

 

[Tuskin38]

Connolly's rank was Lieutenant, not Lieutenant Commander, so, no, he didn't outrank Spock.

I've also seen/heard people mistakenly identify Nhan as a Command officer when she's clearly identified as an Engineer when she, Pike, and Connolly beam over.

I think they were saying she’s a Commander, not a command officer. That’s what her rank insignia says.

 

[DaveyNY]

But that's Kirk becoming historic, and dragging his five-year mission to fame with him.

Which brings us back to the one aspect of this I'm so intrigued about: was the 5YM itself worth anything? We now have new data on it not having been unique, and also data on the skipper of another 5YM being among Starfleet's Most Decorated. So perhaps we get actual answers eventually, too?



Not seeing this, I'm afraid. Kirk was spectating when the Organians ended a Klingon warlet. We now see Burnham was there when an actual Klingon war started and ended, and she started and ended it. If people not even mentioned in TOS or later shows, and not on 5YMs, get to be that historic, what hope does Kirk have?

(Of course, the Burnham deal was so embarrassing that it may have been classified for good. Indeed, any mention of her mutiny seems suppressed.)



And there we run into the above issue in inverse - could Kirk's reputation be built on something that must be top secret? The time travel bit, that is.



And the real question is, was this because he was so busy with the biographies of the equally great Captains Dunsel and Herbert?



Umm, Connolly appears to be mere Lieutenant, with the appropriate single braid. He's also addressed as one, and self-addressed as one, whereas Lieutenant Commander should always be called Commander and the guy no doubt would insist on referring to himself as one at least.

Which one had seniority at Lieutenant rank, we can't readily tell. But if Connolly is the stand-in, it would make sense for him to be the junior of the two, unless we want to decide he's a new arrival. Which takes us back to the nature of 5YMs, and on whether "The Cage" was part of one, and whether one would commonly allow for crew rotation.

Fancy that Pike would choose or warrant a mere Lieutenant as his sciences chief when his other top officers appear to be of higher rank now, #1 having gotten a promotion to Lieutenant Commander, and full Commander Nhan being an unknown quantity, possibly but not necessarily an unseen presence in "The Cage" already.

Timo Saloniemi

You're still seeking answers you already have.
I'm not sure anybody here can help you with that mentality.

Kirk and his Five Year Missions were "Historic" in the sense that somebody decided to continually tell his tales after he was gone and according to his 'biographer' (Roddenberry) it was well worth the effort.
(even though at the time, it wasn't quite up to snuff, i.e. why things were changed for "The Motion Picture" )

There were probably other Captain's that would also qualify (Archer/Pike/Picard) but "The Original Series" is about KIRK & HIS Five Year Mission, so the obvious answer is that one can't dichotomize the two when discussing either.

But all that doesn't necessarily disqualify any other Captain and their particular assorted year missions, as also being "Historic".

 

[Corran Horn]

Well it looks like the Enterprise picked up someone new during Pike's 5 year mission, considering Spock wasn't there and there were still 203 life signs. Or was someone else on vacation during The Cage?

That was kinda silly - blatant memory-alpha'ing to the number for canon. There's better ways it could've been done.

Happened in TNG too - I think the crew complement is given a few times in the series and it's always the same - no births, deaths, or transfers changing anything over the years.

 

[MvRojo]

Well it looks like the Enterprise picked up someone new during Pike's 5 year mission, considering Spock wasn't there and there were still 203 life signs. Or was someone else on vacation during The Cage?

Since Spock checked him into psychiatric treatment, Pike probably assumed he needed someone as a replacement science officer.

 

[DigificWriter]

I think they were saying she’s a Commander, not a command officer. That’s what her rank insignia says.

The hosts of one of the Discovery podcasts I listen to misidentified Nhan as Pike's First Officer and said that they thought she would have to die in order for Number One to be introduced as holding that position, and I've seen some comments here that have expressed similar sentiments.

 

[Noname Given]

Sorry if this came off as a dumping. I guess what I want is answers, but since I know I can't get them, what I secondarily want (that is, "want from you" or want introduced to the discussion) is acknowledging that there's a question there. To the audience, Kirk may appear impressive and historic and all - but since we now watch another set of heroes from the same era, and have Saru's nifty list of heroes of the recent past, we just have to wonder what makes Kirk stand apart.

Of course, it may still be pure audience bias. It's young Icheb who claims the mission would have been historic, and he's but a spectator, somebody who already knows Kirk as a household name and savior of Earth. Possibly most if not all of the five-year missions of the mid-23rd century were historic. But only one of them was conducted by Kirk.

Timo Saloniemi

Since we have 'In universe' characters calling Kirk's missions and first contacts 'historic'; why would you need more info? I

So, yes: In universe, by the time of the 24th century, many of Kirk's missions and contacts were'historic' because we have in universe 24th century characters characters saying they were.

 

[DigificWriter]

Okay, I'm confused by this whole idea that the fact that Pike had at least two 5-year missions with the Enterprise under his command somehow affects the historic nature of Kirk's 5-year mission(s).

Where is the logic in that?

 

[thribs]

Kirk had more “exciting” missions in his I assume.

 

[Timo]

Well, I'd think it obvious: if everybody and his cousin is doing these 5YMs, and Pike did two no less, and all the Starfleet heroes we see save the universe and defeat the Klingons, what value does "historic" hold? Is every 5YM ever conducted "historic"?

The alternative to diluting the word to nothingness is to assign Kirk's mission some qualitative or quantitative edge. And I'd think it highly interesting what this edge might be. Isn't it at the very heart of Star Trek to imagine how exciting and awesomely significant a specific character's specific adventures are?

Kirk holds the first contacts record. He loses to Pike on the number of missions. He's neck to neck with a number of predecessors (who weren't on missions of pre-established length) on the tying-Klingon-shoelaces-together tally, and on the saving-universe-from-anomalies tally. What's his real edge over everybody else? When he wrestles command of NCC-1701 back in ST:TMP and refers to his 5YM, is that mission his real edge over the hundreds of other veteran and current starship skippers at Earth at the time, as he appears to be claiming, or is here more (or less) to it?

One conclusion we are more or less forced to make here comes in two alternative forms: either Pike's multiple 5YMs were lame, and so were those of all other Constitution skippers or whoever gt to conduct the missions - or then every one of those other skippers was just as dead/unavailable as Pike when V'Ger came a-knocking. Both forms might be fun Trek facts to digest...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[USS Excelsior]

And just because Kirk's run was historic doesn't mean that the other ships missions weren't historic either.