Spoilers Season Two Canon Connections

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Tuskin38, Jan 20, 2019.

  1. Yistaan

    Yistaan Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I have a feeling that, now that we're actually seeing Pike's missions on Discovery, they are very much NOT family friendly. We have Spock accused of brutally murdering doctors and going insane, human experimentation via spore drive through Stamets, and most other things are classified.

    Even the only canon mission we knew of that Pike took, before Discovery, was far from family friendly: he was abducted by aliens to be used as a breeding slave. That's as "not safe for work/kids" as you can get.

    Remember what Captain Harriman said to Kirk in Star Trek Generations: "I remember reading about your missions when I was in grade school."

    Kirk's "historicity", as mentioned in Voyager, may have less to do with actual historical value and more about Federation marketing, especially now that we know there were tons of five year missions. Kirk's missions were (relatively) family friendly for kids. TOS was considered a kid's show in Germany (thus the redub of Amok Time over there to remove all mention of Spock's "urges"). Kirk's missions were good recruitment material for kids who dreamed of being Starfleet officers. If Federation children asked what Starfleet officers do, they could point to Kirk and talk about his missions. You couldn't do the same for Pike's/Discovery's missions.
     
  2. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Vice Admiral Admiral

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  3. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Vice Admiral Admiral

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  4. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Last edited: Apr 1, 2019
  5. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Vice Admiral Admiral

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  6. Yistaan

    Yistaan Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Funnily enough, I found a canon contradiction between 'The Menagerie' and 'The Red Angel'

    The Red Angel--
    PIKE: Spock, stand down! That's an order!
    SPOCK: I am sorry, Captain. I cannot.

    The Menagerie--
    SPOCK: I have never disobeyed your orders before, Captain, but this time I must.
    PIKE: Beep Beep.

    Spock says he never disobeyed Pike's orders before, but he clearly did. And he claims otherwise years later. Who says Vulcans never lie? :vulcan:
     
  7. The Mighty Monkey of Mim

    The Mighty Monkey of Mim Commodore Commodore

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    Since "BEEP BEEP" translates to "NO"...

    ...I'd say "BEEP BEEP" to that one.

    But if you want a real one, why the heck is Talos IV "six days away at maximum warp" if it's only a mere two light-years from Starbase 11? :vulcan:

    (Maybe they get renumbered in between, and it's two different Starbases 11? Maybe Spock's careful planning involved traversing some crazy-ass spatial anomalies, or running a very erratic course to evade pursuit? "Don't forget to zig-zag...":rommie:)

    -MMoM:D
     
  8. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Well, there's the Tyme Barrier in between, apparently. Braving it is not for the faint of the heart. Or for those without one.

    (Of course, the trip in "The Menagerie" does not take six days, nor do we hear it involve maximum warp at any point. Possibly Spock was originally planning on employing a Class C shuttlecraft, and the decision to hijack Kirk's starship only came later? In any case, the DSC dialogue is actually better in line with the events of "The Menagerie" than dialogue from the episode itself!)

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  9. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The shuttle would still need to warp to catch up.
     
  10. Yistaan

    Yistaan Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You're assuming spock is speaking about earth days ;)
     
  11. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Kang, now with ridges Premium Member

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    Named for physicist Prof. Justin Tyme?
     
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  12. seigezunt

    seigezunt Vice Admiral Admiral

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    His colleagues, Professors Parsley, Sage and Rosemary deserve more credit.
     
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  13. David cgc

    David cgc Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Yeah, exactly, Pike is calling him out. "I've never disobeyed your orders," "No, you have."
     
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  14. Tim Thomason

    Tim Thomason Commodore Commodore

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    Perhaps the subspace around Talos is barren (due to subspace weapons from their wars 500,000 years ago) and can't be easily transversed via high warp. The maximum safe warp is somewhere closer to Warp 1.8, and anything higher will cause further deterioration or damage the ship. Maybe this is a failsafe from the ancient Talosians to keep out lookie-loos.

    Talos is also defined as a star group, so maybe it's dangerous to warp through the Talos star system, which is much larger than a normal solar system and is more akin to multiple star systems colliding with one another. Were ancient Talosians star-movers?
     
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  15. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Well, Pike's ship seems to be at sublight when encountering the Talosian fake SOS - she only accelerates to warp after Pike makes up his mind. Is this because Pike was tasked with "patrolling" the area, even though other bits of dialogue suggest he was interested in delivering his casualties to Vega ASAP? The injuries seemed insignificant, though: perhaps Pike was told to complete his low-speed patrol before letting Spock and the other bandaged folks take their recuperative leave on Vega, the next scheduled port of call?

    The other possibility is that the neighborhood indeed is hostile to warp. We have seen (literally!) that high warp is slow (indeed, slower than lightspeed) at certain locations, such as close to Sol (just watch the fourth TOS movie, say). Perhaps crossing two lightyears from SB11 to Talos indeed takes six days at maximum warp, even though going two lightyears in the other direction takes six minutes?

    But again, that's not what is going on in "The Menagerie" - there's no way the trip we see takes six days, and it's unlikely Scotty would sit there glued to a TV screen if his poor bairns were redlining, no matter whether they were putting out warp 10 or warp 1.8. So is Spock lying to Pike; considering another destination besides Talos IV; considering an alternate means of warp travel besides the Enterprise; or perhaps all of those?

    The DSC reference does not complicate this issue; if anything, it clarifies it, establishing Spock's odd and ambiguous line as the bit that is out of whack with what we see.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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