Scientific weirdness in Star Trek

[fireproof78]

Yeah, the sheer sexism of the first two reboot movies was definitely a negative. I was looking forward to seeing a modern twist on the recurring and key characters but we got Wynona Kirk negligently absent after doing the one thing only a woman can do, Amanda dead, T'Pau absent, Number One absent, yeomen 1-8 absent, Chapel mentioned in passing but inexplicably a nurse instead of a scientist years before Korby disappeared and then booted off the ship in the most insulting way etc. Spock finds resolution with his father, Kirk finds resolution with a new father figure. Women? What good are they? Oh yeah - they're good in their underwear.

At least Beyond pulled it back a fair bit.

Save for Uhura demonstrating her capability and various female officers present. But, yeah, speaking roles were limited. Not sure why we need Yeomen as females on this new ship. Unnecessary.

Uhura sadly has to carry a lot of the weight of the female role. She does that well.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yeah, the sheer sexism of the first two reboot movies was definitely a negative. I was looking forward to seeing a modern twist on the recurring and key characters but we got Wynona Kirk negligently absent after doing the one thing only a woman can do, Amanda dead, T'Pau absent, Number One absent, yeomen 1-8 absent, Chapel mentioned in passing but inexplicably a nurse instead of a scientist years before Korby disappeared and then booted off the ship in the most insulting way etc. Spock finds resolution with his father, Kirk finds resolution with a new father figure. Women? What good are they? Oh yeah - they're good in their underwear.

At least Beyond pulled it back a fair bit.

Uhura was pretty much the third lead in '09. And gave as good as she got.

 

[shapeshifter]

Is the "bad science" in Trek an error, or is it just how things work in the fictitious Star Trek universe?

How things work, imo. If we just go with it we can continue having a good time but when we start picking too deeply at it, it gets infected. That's not to say all examination is off the table, I just avoid open heart surgery. Worked for me all these decades.

 

[Warped9]

I think you can say any damn fucking shit you want, as long as it's directed at the post and not the poster,

If I let myself get dragged into it I’ll just start repeating things I’ve been saying for years and accomplishing zilch.

I don’t like the JJ films, at all, and I give them zero credit for anything. I’ll leave it at that.

 

[fireproof78]

If I let myself get dragged into it I’ll just start repeating things I’ve been saying for years and accomplishing zilch.

Ha. I feel the same way. We are not so different, you and I

 

[Neopeius]

Save for Uhura demonstrating her capability and various female officers present. But, yeah, speaking roles were limited. Not sure why we need Yeomen as females on this new ship. Unnecessary.

Uhura sadly has to carry a lot of the weight of the female role. She does that well.

Exactly. One woman on the bridge. There were three in "The Cage" in 1964.

 

[fireproof78]

Exactly. One woman on the bridge. There were three in "The Cage" in 1964.

In a speaking role, just to clarify?

 

[Pauln6]

Save for Uhura demonstrating her capability and various female officers present. But, yeah, speaking roles were limited. Not sure why we need Yeomen as females on this new ship. Unnecessary.

In Into Darkness, a new character was placed at navigation while Chekov was posted to engineering. She was given nothing much to do other than deliver a few bog-standard responses to orders. So the role of navigator was is not key to featuring Chekov as much as desire to use him. Clearly, Number One and T'Pau could have fitted perfectly into the story. There was just no willingness to use them when Spock and Sarek would do. All the yeomen were also trained astronauts, security trained, and trained on all the ship's systems. If they thought making a command ensign with 6 months experience chief engineer was fine, it's silly to suggest that they could not have found something for a yeoman character to do within the plot. Unless they had a direct link to one of the male characters, the writers of the first two movies did not seem able to think of any need for any female characters to do anything significant.

Uhura was pretty much the third lead in '09. And gave as good as she got.

Princess Leia was great but that doesn't mean Star Wars wasn't sexist. Uhura's update was also well done but they just really smooshed elements of Chapel, Rand, and Uhura into one, more rounded character and they stopped giving technical tasks suited to her skill set to Spock.

I think for me, I can forgive the sixties for slightly dodgy science and more sexism than I can the more modern shows/movies. You would have thought that more scientific knowledge and more awareness of gender equality would make it onto screen. I do appreciate that harder sci fi, like the Expanse, is probably less popular for a whole bunch of reasons but that doesn't mean there isn't a better balance. I would love to be a fly on the wall listening in to the scientific advisors on the modern Trek shows considering some of the nonsense that makes it on screen there.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Exactly. One woman on the bridge. There were three in "The Cage" in 1964.

You might want to look again.

And come on. The woman at communications and Yeoman Colt weren't exactly leading parts.

 

[Pauln6]

You might want to look again.

And come on. The woman at communications and Yeoman Colt weren't exactly leading parts.

Colt was equivalent to Sulu and Chekov though - not a lead but a significant member of the ensemble. NuTrek had lots of cute women in the background, that is true but few of them really do anything significant. The transporter chief couldn't even do her job.

 

[Nerys Myk]

So the role of navigator was is not key to featuring Chekov as much as desire to use him. Clearly, Number One and T'Pau could have fitted perfectly into the story.

Why bring in Number One and T'pau to replace characters established in the previous film? To deliver bog standard dialog?

All the yeomen were also trained astronauts, security trained, and trained on all the ship's systems.

Were they?

If they thought making a command ensign with 6 months experience chief engineer was fine, it's silly to suggest that they could not have found something for a yeoman character to do within the plot.

Such as? Hand off reports? Deliver salads? Look scared? I'd rather see women is better roles than yeoman. If they're going to do security stuff, make them security. If they're going work on ship's systems, make them engineers. Yeoman isn't just that interesting, unless they go comedy like Radar O'Riley.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Colt was equivalent to Sulu and Chekov though - not a lead but a significant member of the ensemble. NuTrek had lots of cute women in the background, that is true but few of them really do anything significant. The transporter chief couldn't even do her job.

On paper the that's what the Yeoman part was supposed to be. never worked out. Colt has like seven lines in the entire episode. Most of which are two or three words, Half of which are of the "yes, sir" variety.
Was the transporter chief supposed to be Rand?

 

[fireproof78]

So the role of navigator was is not key to featuring Chekov as much as desire to use him.

Because that was the purpose of the story was to show Kirk's lack of trust in anyone but his inner circle. He didn't even trust Pike with the truth.

Clearly, Number One and T'Pau could have fitted perfectly into the story.

How so? T'Pau maybe could have fit with the Vulcan Science Academy review board but her whole presentation is one of dubious trust of humans in the first place. Not sure how that fits. Number One would have been fine, but that misses the point of 09 which was to take familiar touch stones that the general public would know about TOS, captured pretty well here:

and offer a 2000's sensibility to it, while keeping with the action/adventure spirit. The Kelvin films are closer in line with TOS than many fans would like to admit.

You would have thought that more scientific knowledge and more awareness of gender equality would make it onto screen.

Maybe, and we see that with Uhura, and her expanded role vs. McCoy. And how did vocal fans respond? By demanding Kirk-Spock-McCoy. So, Beyond ends up setting back a bit.

All the yeomen were also trained astronauts, security trained, and trained on all the ship's systems. If they thought making a command ensign with 6 months experience chief engineer was fine, it's silly to suggest that they could not have found something for a yeoman character to do within the plot. Unless they had a direct link to one of the male characters, the writers of the first two movies did not seem able to think of any need for any female characters to do anything significant.

And we extras all over the ship and it is a good mix. But, the purpose of the story was again referencing TOS style and moving it in to the 2000s, not to try and be more "evolved."

I'm not saying they couldn't find things to do with the plot. In fact, I think as the Kelvin films go on we see Kirk's growth in his attitude towards women reflected in his interactions with more of the crew, rather than the trusted core. Even his attitude towards Marcus is much more gentle and caring by the end.

 

[Pauln6]

On paper the that's what the Yeoman part was supposed to be. never worked out. Colt has like seven lines in the entire episode. Most of which are two or three words, Half of which are of the "yes, sir" variety.
Was the transporter chief supposed to be Rand?

Yeah but the yeomen role was so mired in sexism. Grace described Rand as a Space Waitress and all the yeomen as 'cute and not very bright'. But Colt makes the point that she has the same training as the men when asking to be included in the landing party (I don't think her line made it into the final cut though). Any unwillingness to use the yeoman as security support, or to help mend the shuttle, or actively question a suspicious character etc was down to sexism, and possibly the expanding egos of the male leads.

I think the transporter chief was a brunette and an officer but for sure, Rand could have taken over in place of Chekov given the character history.

 

[Pauln6]

Because that was the purpose of the story was to show Kirk's lack of trust in anyone but his inner circle. He didn't even trust Pike with the truth.

How so? T'Pau maybe could have fit with the Vulcan Science Academy review board but her whole presentation is one of dubious trust of humans in the first place. Not sure how that fits. Number One would have been fine, but that misses the point of 09 which was to take familiar touch stones that the general public would know about TOS

Yes, the Vulcan Science Academy would have been a good opportunity to give a woman some lines and it could have been T'Pau but if you are blowing up the whole planet it seems silly not to include the leader of that planet, especially when it would have helped address the dearth of women. I get that they wanted to recapture the dynamic of TOS and in many ways they did an amazing job. I was just astonished that in a 21st century reboot they were so blatantly and astonishingly tone deaf about even the vague appearance of equality.

Now, black holes and slingshot manoeuvres. Perfectly sensible and well known to science. Why is is it such a trope to try and use engine power to escape. The math is not that hard, surely? And does the math add up after you have expelled the power source that runs both your propulsion and your shields?

 

[Nerys Myk]

But Colt makes the point that she has the same training as the men when asking to be included in the landing party (I don't think her line made it into the final cut though).

So why bring it up? It don't mean a thing if it ain't on the screen.

Any unwillingness to use the yeoman as security support, or to help mend the shuttle, or actively question a suspicious character etc was down to sexism, and possibly the expanding egos of the male leads.

You're missing the point. Make the women Security officers and engineers. Write that, not Yeoman Mary Sue to the rescue. There's no sexism in giving women those roles and showing they are trained in them. Yeomen have a specific job and training, they're not jacks of all trades. Frankly I rolled my eyes at Chekov being the CE, because it's the same stupid problem. I hate it when specialists are sidelined so another character can play hero,

I think the transporter chief was a brunette and an officer but for sure, Rand could have taken over in place of Chekov given the character history.

TMP joke.

 

[fireproof78]

Now, black holes and slingshot manoeuvres. Perfectly sensible and well known to science. Why is is it such a trope to try and use engine power to escape. The math is not that hard, surely? And does the math add up after you have expelled the power source that runs both your propulsion and your shields?

Maybe? I would love to have a moment like in the Pilot episode of Farscape of Scotty and Spock doing the calculations for their escape velocity. The question will be pacing.

I was just astonished that in a 21st century reboot they were so blatantly and astonishingly tone deaf about even the vague appearance of equality.

I don't think they could win. They either brought TOS and that styling and get complaints about equality or they update it, like with Uhura, and get complaints about missing the point of TOS.

Frankly I rolled my eyes at Chekov being the CE, because it's the same stupid problem. I hate it when specialists are sidelined so another character can play hero,

I mean, I would normally agree, but the point of the film was Kirk's inexperience and mistakes, not having Chekov as the hero.

 

[Noname Given]

In a speaking role, just to clarify?

"Name's Smith sir..."

Although we know what couch she had to lie on with Roddenberry to get that line.

 

[Nerys Myk]

"Name's Smith sir..."

Although we know what couch she had to lie on with Roddenberry to get that line.

I've heard she was one who "got away".

 

[Neopeius]

I've heard she was one who "got away".

That tracks.