I don't think OldWho and OldTrek were ever in spitting distance of Hard SF.
Scientific weirdness in Star Trek
- Thread starter Neopeius
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I don't think OldWho and OldTrek were ever in spitting distance of Hard SF.
They were closer. Certainly Season 7 OldWho was the closest it got, and TOS had the virtue of its lit sf roots.
We can argue what SF is, and we can pick apart episodes, scenes, and shows in toto, but there is a qualitative difference.
Nah, still not in spitting distance. Trek's lit roots seem more pulpy than hard.
"Pulp" is another one of those words with a broad range of meanings.
Trek, to me, feels like a direct evolution of 50s science fiction, married with a bit of Hornblower and mid-20th Century Navy. 50s science fiction was a lot of things, but for the most part, it wasn't pulp (by definition!).
There's something you don't hear every day...
From memory, Kirk Prime took the test more than once; he didn't cheat right out of the gate. Also, I certainly never imagined that he changed the test to make it impossible to lose, just possible to win. I think the TWOK novelisation had more details and I may be projecting from a non-canon source.If you go by what Kirk said in Star Trek II: The Wrath Of Khan, he was effectively rewarded for cheating in the PU as well - per his own words: "I got a commendation for original thinking" <--- So there's really nothing new/different WRT his portrayal in the JJ verse in that regard.
James T. Kirk was always know for breaking/not following the rules, and at worst getting away with it/at best being rewarded for it because he usually had a very positive result from it in the end - and in his era, it seems both Starfleet and the Federation only cared about results.
Hell, look at the end of Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. Kirk disregarded the express orders of the Starfleet Commander; STOLE a Federation starship - sparked a diplomatic incident that both cost that ship and nearly lead to war with the Klingon Empire.
Kirk's punishment: Demotion to Captain (he seemed to dislike being an Admiral at a desk anyway); and assigned to Command of the newest ship in the Fleet - the 1701-A.
So yeah - the fact that Kelvin Kirk is treated the same way...big surprise...not.
Kirk did bend or break the rules sometimes but usually when in command, based on his past experience. If he'd behaved that way before he had experience, I don't imagine he would have been promoted in TOS as quickly, or at all. Remember how his mistake as an ensign still haunted him years later? NuKirk didn't seem to be that self-aware. His rapid promotion rankled because of that.
One reason why I think Garth would have been a better villain is that he was genetically altered to heal his injuries, so magical blood would feel like it makes more sense that a human who was a product of selective breeding in the 90s.
Neither did Kelvin Kirk.
Maybe, but even McCoy hints at a regenerative capability of Khan in Space Seed.
Pine Kirk seemed to be more of a jerk about his viictory though. And how dare they call an academic hearing? Everyone who cheats on a test should be rewarded come top of the class no questions asked.
People who actually do an exam legitimately - what a bunch of losers - not captain material at all.
Yeah: rogue, loose canon Kirk is a trope, not the actual character presented in the shows and movies.
Question: Is the "bad science" in Trek an error, or is it just how things work in the fictitious Star Trek universe? As I said before, aliens are humans with comparable values and silly aesthetic differences to us, sound exists in space, time and up are universal constants etc.
So maybe the centre of the galaxy isn't a supermassive black hole but a fireworks factory where the galaxy was created "from a great explosion" and where new matter is explictly created. There's a gateway to a universe of magic there. There's also the great barrier here around the big floating head planet from STV.
Mistakes or the differences of a fantasy world?
So maybe the centre of the galaxy isn't a supermassive black hole but a fireworks factory where the galaxy was created "from a great explosion" and where new matter is explictly created. There's a gateway to a universe of magic there. There's also the great barrier here around the big floating head planet from STV.
Mistakes or the differences of a fantasy world?
I think that earlier shows did have quite strong engineering parameters. When you scratch below the surface there was a lot of hard science there that was quite appealing in a way that magic mushroom spore drives aren't. A lot of people were inspired by the science, even the fictional science - because it was founded in reality. I think the astronomical science might, with hindsight, be a bit less reliable as our knowledge has increased. We joke about Decker citing, "What we used to call a black hole," instead of an "Einstein-Rosen bridge," or just a wormhole (probably to avoid confusion with the earlier wormhole) but he's doing that for the audience rather than poor science isn't he?
They may have had to throw in fictional dilithium to make the numbers add up but at least they knew that the numbers didn't add up.
I think the problem is that when you have parameters, it limits storytelling, and it requires someone to keep track (mind you, a lot of intelligent nerds might consider that a dream job). I can forgive, "Oh look some alien technology that violates previously established rules," more than, "Our ship violated previously accepted rules this week."
I do dislike the NuTrek long distance transporting because of the huge implications it had for the fictional universe - the humans - not even that advanced in the grand scheme of things - can teleport dozens of light years with a portable power device onto an alien world with no receiving pad? What the hell can more advanced species do, and why don't they?
What was frustrating was that the warp beaming fits the bill without the need to also make it long distance. All they had to do was not take the stupid, illogical step of firing Kirk in a lifepod so that there would not be 8-12 hours of distance to the ship. Similarly, Khan could have beamed onto a nearby ship that was already at warp instead of an enemy planet.
You say that as if people are not inspired by current Trek or as if if hard science is the only inspiration. As I said earlier, discovering that Trek was wrong about the science didn't stop the inspiration, but it made me more willing to approach it in a way that was less about accuracy and more about exploration of possibility.
Yup, and he had to learn from that process eventually.
It's the movies were that really becomes a thing. Stealing ships. Admitting to cheating. TV Kirk would bend the rules if he thought the cause was right. Usually if there was a friend involved. Saving the Galileo crew. Manipulating things so the Karidian Players would have to use the Enterprise.
The Kelvin films play up that side of Kirk, a long with being a ladies man.
Agreed. I think the initial films played up the caricature of Kirk and the JJ films took it to another level.
JJ Films had a reason to do so. Kirk had no father figure, no direction. He was smart and talented but directionless.
This is where I bail on the conversation lest I get banned for unfortunate language.
Yeah, the sheer sexism of the first two reboot movies was definitely a negative. I was looking forward to seeing a modern twist on the recurring and key characters but we got Wynona Kirk negligently absent after doing the one thing only a woman can do, Amanda dead, T'Pau absent, Number One absent, yeomen 1-8 absent, Chapel mentioned in passing but inexplicably a nurse instead of a scientist years before Korby disappeared and then booted off the ship in the most insulting way etc. Spock finds resolution with his father, Kirk finds resolution with a new father figure. Women? What good are they? Oh yeah - they're good in their underwear.
At least Beyond pulled it back a fair bit.
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