Sci-Fi Wire Report On "Enterprise"...

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Posted by Raz:
I can't help but wonder what your point of contributing that tangent actually was?

I'm not surprised.

 

[Raz]

Posted by Dennis Bailey:
I'm not surprised.

So.. your point was... ?

 

[Ptrope]

Posted by Dennis Bailey:
The notion that ideas of non-violence or non-interference or the simple sentiment "I will not kill -- today" are one whit less "human" than violence would be news to philosophers, religious leaders and politicians ranging from Ghandi to Bill Wilson to the folks who wrote the Bible -- not to mention billions of adherents to such beliefs throughout time.

This kind of argument always reminds me of a magazine feature writer -- I've long since forgotten his name -- who attended a couple of Trek conventions in the 70s and came away with the durable observation that "while it's admirable that trekkies embrace philosophies of peace and brotherhood, it's disturbing that so many of them seem to think that these are original ideas unheard of before 'Star Trek'" (paraphrase).

I'm curious about the sequitur here, as well, Dennis. What does the humanity of these sentiments vs. that of violence have to do with diluting a dramatic construct by homogenizing its viewpoints? Or with replacing the concepts of diversity and open-mindedness with ones of colonialism and prejudice?

For that matter, who said anything about these being original ideas, either, and what is the relevance there?

Perspiring mimes want to know ...

 

[Raz]

Posted by Ptrope:
Perspiring mimes want to know ...

Quiet you - my hands are getting sweaty..

 

[Zane Gray]

Posted by Scribe34:
You know what prompted this don't you? All the shipper threads that were on this list a couple of weeks ago. B & B turned up on this board, saw the T/T'Pols were ahead in the polls of which was the more popular ship and went with it.

Personally, I'm something of a T/T'Pol shipper but only because these two characters have an extreme amount of chemistry together, a thing sadly missed in Season 2. Cold Front was one of the best eps of Enterprise and it had to do with their interaction, even if they don't go the romance route, a deeper friendship between the two could be a good thing. In light of the Expanse, it may actually make sense. Trip's running high on emotions right now and he probably needs T'Pol's sense of calm to steady him and T'Pol in attempting to experience human emotions, may need a guide in this, ie. Trip.

Finally, I wouldn't mind seeing a Vulcan on a trek show that did not feel it to be somewhat embarassing to acquire human traits. Spocks did it under sufferance and only in the films, did we see him finally accepting his dual heritage.

Tuvok, who is cool, no matter how lousy Voyager was, is more or less the same way. Trying to remain true to himself, but still managing to show suprising sensitivity to his crew mates without losing his Vulcan discipline.

The journey to understand her own emotional core oculd be T'Pol's way of defining herself from the very large shoes left by Spock and to a lesser degree, Tuvok. We may be seeing the origins of Sybok's order.

Well said Scribe. I don't think there's anything wrong with T'Pol exploring her emotions. We know Vulcans have them, it's just they repress and shun them as a race. But here's T'Pol on a human ship. Understaning her own emotions is the key for her to finally understand her human crewmates more fully. To understand why they do things that aren't always logical... and why that isn't always a bad thing.

As for Trip and T'Pol, there may have been a certain amount of responding to these boards, but more likely in my mind they simply came to the conclusion that was most logical. Trip and T'Pol are simply the one pairing that makes the most sense on this show, for reasons that lots of T/T shippers have addressed in the past and non-T/T shippers have derided.

Not the least of which is that Blalock and Trinner, of all the actors on the show, seem to have the most sexual chemistry together by far. And it only makes sense that Trip, struggling with his emotions, would turn to T'Pol. He can't really confide in one of his subordinates due to chain of command problems. He likely wouldn't want to burden his Captain with his own troubles when the guy already has the weight of the world on his shoulders. And if Trip's feeling like he's torn between duty and desire for revenge, the last thing he'd want to do is give his friend any thought that he might let him down. T'Pol is nearly his own rank, and is now outside of the chain of command. He's helped her with her own private issue in the past, so he knows she'd be discreet. She's always telling him he needs to control his Human emotional impulses. And she knows how to do that. It absolutely makes sense.

If a relationship develops out of that, and it's well written, great. If not, at least they're developing the friendship, which was off to a strong start in Season One and was largely ignored in Season Two. Either way, I think it's a great move for this show. And it gives me hope that maybe B&B are starting to UNDERSTAND what it is that fans see in these characters and why.

Add to this the whole of idea of Archer being a darker, more decisive character ("Go to Hell!" Archer is my favorite), and the fact that B&B have ditched the idea of Borg or Q or Guinan or other characters we've seen on other shows appearing this season, and the fact that it looks like we'll have a season-long continuing character arc, and I'm cautiously optimistic about Enterprise for the first time in a VERY LONG time.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Posted by Zane Gray:
Trip and T'Pol are simply the one pairing that makes the most sense on this show, for reasons that lots of T/T shippers have addressed in the past and non-T/T shippers have derided.

Not the least of which is that Blalock and Trinner, of all the actors on the show, seem to have the most sexual chemistry together by far. And it only makes sense that Trip, struggling with his emotions, would turn to T'Pol.

This is all true -- and they first set the relationship potential up in the pilot.

 

[Zane Gray]

Posted by Imzadi13:
Seriously though. I was really hoping that all relationships would be put off until the later seasons, as I've said many times before.
I wanted ENT to work on developing all the characters more indivudually than pairing them off.
And now, if Trip and T'Pol do indeed get together, what happens if the relationship goes sour and they end up fighting more. I really enjoyed the light banter between them...I hope nothing bad happens.
*sigh* Relationships this early....so many things can go wrong...

I don't know... imagine if the did a Trip/T'Pol relationship and got it right? Let's put this another way... what if TNG had connected Riker/Troi earlier and made it work, instead of waiting until Nemesis to get them together when most Trek fans had stopped caring? Wouldn't it be nice for a change to have a Trek series where characters weren't constantly planing Matchgame throughout the series? If B&B comitted to Trip/T'Pol, and the writers get it right, it would be a new dimension to Trek. An intelligent, adult, passionate male/female relationship that didn't undermine the drama but rather enhanced it. And it's teh perfect vehicle for exploring the Human/Vulcan dynamic as well. Who knows?

One thing is certain though... no matter what B&B do, there are going to be Trek fans who hate it.

 

[emily_reich]

Posted by Zane Gray:

One thing is certain though... no matter what B&B do, there are going to be Trek fans who hate it.

truer words were never spoken (ok, so i've said that a lot... but i think it's actually true this time )

 

[Raz]

Posted by Ptrope:

Posted by Dennis Bailey:
The notion that ideas of non-violence or non-interference or the simple sentiment "I will not kill -- today" are one whit less "human" than violence would be news to philosophers, religious leaders and politicians ranging from Ghandi to Bill Wilson to the folks who wrote the Bible -- not to mention billions of adherents to such beliefs throughout time.

This kind of argument always reminds me of a magazine feature writer -- I've long since forgotten his name -- who attended a couple of Trek conventions in the 70s and came away with the durable observation that "while it's admirable that trekkies embrace philosophies of peace and brotherhood, it's disturbing that so many of them seem to think that these are original ideas unheard of before 'Star Trek'" (paraphrase).

I'm curious about the sequitur here, as well, Dennis. What does the humanity of these sentiments vs. that of violence have to do with diluting a dramatic construct by homogenizing its viewpoints? Or with replacing the concepts of diversity and open-mindedness with ones of colonialism and prejudice?

For that matter, who said anything about these being original ideas, either, and what is the relevance there?

Perspiring mimes want to know ...

*sound of crickets chirping*

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Posted by Raz:

Posted by Dennis Bailey:
The notion that ideas of non-violence or non-interference or the simple sentiment "I will not kill -- today" are one whit less "human" than violence would be news to philosophers, religious leaders and politicians ranging from Ghandi to Bill Wilson to the folks who wrote the Bible -- not to mention billions of adherents to such beliefs throughout time.

This kind of argument always reminds me of a magazine feature writer -- I've long since forgotten his name -- who attended a couple of Trek conventions in the 70s and came away with the durable observation that "while it's admirable that trekkies embrace philosophies of peace and brotherhood, it's disturbing that so many of them seem to think that these are original ideas unheard of before 'Star Trek'" (paraphrase).

Thanks, I like that one myself. It's so entirely clear and self-explanatory.

 

[janek]

Posted by Scribe34:
You know what prompted this don't you? All the shipper threads that were on this list a couple of weeks ago. B & B turned up on this board, saw the T/T'Pols were ahead in the polls of which was the more popular ship and went with it.

I just can't believe B&B would be that dumb. I don't believe there ever has been a 'ship poll on this site -- at least "official" one. I stand corrected if you are right.

There are lots of opinions posted on this board, some more vocal & eloquent than others but I don't believe that this board represents the majority -- at least 'ship wise. I belive most posters here don’t give a hoot about ‘ship anyway. I just remember a thread that started off asking for our 'ship preference and such and yes, T/T'P was the clear winner of that thread by about 10 votes or so.

At this point, I'm just hoping that writers will focus on building Trip and T'Pol's friendship. There’s bound to be some steamy moments between Trip and T'Pol. Hopefully it will help the ratings and still bring good characterization for Trip and T’Pol but for the long term romantic pairing, I'm holding out hope for Archer and T'Pol.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Posted by janek:
I just can't believe B&B would be that dumb. I don't believe there ever has been a 'ship poll on this site -- at least "official" one. I stand corrected if you are right.

There are lots of opinions posted on this board, some more vocal & eloquent than others but I don't believe that this board represents the majority -- at least 'ship wise. I belive most posters here don’t give a hoot about ‘ship anyway. I just remember a thread that started off asking for our 'ship preference and such and yes, T/T'P was the clear winner of that thread by about 10 votes or so.

At this point, I'm just hoping that writers will focus on building Trip and T'Pol's friendship. There’s bound to be some steamy moments between Trip and T'Pol. Hopefully it will help the ratings and still bring good characterization for Trip and T’Pol but for the long term romantic pairing, I'm holding out hope for Archer and T'Pol.

Absolutely Right(TM). Sometimes folks get an exaggerated notion of the importance of places like this on the internet.

 

[reno floyd]

Posted by Dennis Bailey:

Posted by janek:
I just can't believe B&B would be that dumb. I don't believe there ever has been a 'ship poll on this site -- at least "official" one. I stand corrected if you are right.

There are lots of opinions posted on this board, some more vocal & eloquent than others but I don't believe that this board represents the majority -- at least 'ship wise. I belive most posters here don’t give a hoot about ‘ship anyway. I just remember a thread that started off asking for our 'ship preference and such and yes, T/T'P was the clear winner of that thread by about 10 votes or so.

At this point, I'm just hoping that writers will focus on building Trip and T'Pol's friendship. There’s bound to be some steamy moments between Trip and T'Pol. Hopefully it will help the ratings and still bring good characterization for Trip and T’Pol but for the long term romantic pairing, I'm holding out hope for Archer and T'Pol.

Absolutely Right(TM). Sometimes folks get an exaggerated notion of the importance of places like this on the internet.

Yes, when the writers, actors, composers, Pocket Books authors, editors, illustrators and even William Shatner come to this particular board - why it almost gives one the sense that the people who make Trek actually come here and read what we have to say... Silly us.

 

[Scribe34]

Posted by Dennis Bailey:

Posted by janek:
I just can't believe B&B would be that dumb. I don't believe there ever has been a 'ship poll on this site -- at least "official" one. I stand corrected if you are right.

There are lots of opinions posted on this board, some more vocal & eloquent than others but I don't believe that this board represents the majority -- at least 'ship wise. I belive most posters here don’t give a hoot about ‘ship anyway. I just remember a thread that started off asking for our 'ship preference and such and yes, T/T'P was the clear winner of that thread by about 10 votes or so.

At this point, I'm just hoping that writers will focus on building Trip and T'Pol's friendship. There’s bound to be some steamy moments between Trip and T'Pol. Hopefully it will help the ratings and still bring good characterization for Trip and T’Pol but for the long term romantic pairing, I'm holding out hope for Archer and T'Pol.

Absolutely Right(TM). Sometimes folks get an exaggerated notion of the importance of places like this on the internet.

Honestly, when I made the remark about the polls, it was meant tongue in cheek.

 

[myst123]

I don't think that the decision to promote the political alliance between Vulcans and humans via Archer and T'Pol had anything to do with a poll. It has to do with what Archer needs to accomplish in space. He needs to get humans to be taken seriously. T'Pol is a colleague and a Vulcan - Archer needs to work with her to bring humans, Vulcans, and one hopes! Andorians together. Trip and T'Pol are aboaut the personal - about interspecies love and expectations. They may fail because it is too early in the alliance for two members of these very different species to make it.

I look forward to Archer learning to take humans forward into space, to make humans part of a larger community. In the past two years, he wanted to be a tourist, in some ways - he didn't want to face the harsh realities Vulcans had been telling him exist. Now he knows. Now he will start helping to create the guidelines which keep humans safe in space. This will be great. And he will have two good friends and colleagues by his side, there to help and be supportive: Trip and T'Pol.

 

[Raz]

Posted by Dennis Bailey:
The notion that ideas of non-violence or non-interference or the simple sentiment "I will not kill -- today" are one whit less "human" than violence would be news to philosophers, religious leaders and politicians ranging from Ghandi to Bill Wilson to the folks who wrote the Bible -- not to mention billions of adherents to such beliefs throughout time.

This kind of argument always reminds me of a magazine feature writer -- I've long since forgotten his name -- who attended a couple of Trek conventions in the 70s and came away with the durable observation that "while it's admirable that trekkies embrace philosophies of peace and brotherhood, it's disturbing that so many of them seem to think that these are original ideas unheard of before 'Star Trek'" (paraphrase).

Yes; it explains how you uselessly sidetracked the thread by calling the "originality" of such concepts into question.

Yet nobody asserted the originality of such ideas - something both Ptrope and I have stated. Yet you persist to restate this idea, almost like you're unwilling to confrot the actual issue.

I like Ptrope's response better - it has considerably more class

Posted by Ptrope:
I'm curious about the sequitur here, as well, Dennis. What does the humanity of these sentiments vs. that of violence have to do with diluting a dramatic construct by homogenizing its viewpoints? Or with replacing the concepts of diversity and open-mindedness with ones of colonialism and prejudice?

For that matter, who said anything about these being original ideas, either, and what is the relevance there?

When you choose to address the actual issue, instead of sidetracking things in your usual manner, i'll be waiting.

Feel free not to respond, or to quote your past arguments once more - it will only confirm what is plain for all to see.

 

[Guest]

I am hoping the "Sea-Change" refers to an alien species known as the Hydran. We used to play a role-playing game when I was young called Starfleet. The Hydrans were a race used in this game. I believe the weapons used by the Hydrans were a plasma weapon know as a HELLFIRE?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Posted by reno floyd:
Yes, when the writers, actors, composers, Pocket Books authors, editors, illustrators and even William Shatner come to this particular board - why it almost gives one the sense that the people who make Trek actually come here and read what we have to say... Silly us.

Don't be embarrassed by it -- it's easy to get confused by the difference between being occasionally useful to people and being influential.

Leaving aside the non-sequitur of invoking the Shat's name as someone who might have some influence on the direction that Viacom and the producers are taking "Enterprise" (ditto for the PocketBook folks, of course) You're joking about the "William Shatner" thing, right? You're not one of the naive folk who believed that Shatner really personally posted and then read the responses, back when his people were promoting his website here in his name?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Posted by capt jarrott:
I am hoping the "Sea-Change" refers to an alien species known as the Hydran. We used to play a role-playing game when I was young called Starfleet. The Hydrans were a race used in this game. I believe the weapons used by the Hydrans were a plasma weapon know as a HELLFIRE?

I thought the Hydrans had ICE POWERS?!

 

[Guest]

Ice? You might be thinking Kzinti which I think would be a great species to see.