On the Countdown/Abramsverse interpretation of Star Trek, Ambassador Picard had this to say to Q. I'm guessing it was actual Federation policy.
http://www.startrek.com/article/idws-the-q-gambit-brings-together-q-the-current-enterprise-crew
Spoilers S31: Disavowed by David Mack Review Thread
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- Start date
http://www.startrek.com/article/idws-the-q-gambit-brings-together-q-the-current-enterprise-crew
Maybe they are different in Cardassian, but to our ears (at least in case of speakers of languages with one "k") there is no difference. To them, their names pronounced in Fed Standard are butchered by incorrect pronunciation. Happens all the time among Earthlings, so more so among aliens.
Or there could be no real reason at all. In Hong Kong the Chinese surname 羅 is sometimes romanised as "Lo", and some people have it as "Law" for no apparent reason.
Now...the little thing about the very end. I love it. A lot.
And I can't wait to see if my suspicions regarding such are confirmed.
"Control" indeed. And of course they don't know his identity. Could he be...possibly...?
PLEASE, let it be so!
Care to elaborate as to who you think Control might be?
Everyone knows Gary Seven is Control.
And for reasons like that, I somewhat favor the PRC policy of all citizens' names being legally registered with a transcription in hanyu pinyin. So anyone can tell how it's supposed to be pronounced. Usually minus tone marks for typing convenience though.
My understanding is that Bennett's reference in Watching the Clock referred to the entire episode of time travel.
Is there no Bajoran wormhole in the MU? I'm not sure how Vash's time travel to the past contradicts Treklit, though.
There wasn't one in Millennium (in contradiction to what was seen on screen, honestly); that was the entire reason why the Federation in 2400 had a plan to escape to the Mirror Universe to avoid the threat of the Red Orbs, because there was no Bajoran Wormhole there to even potentially end reality by contacting their Red Wormhole. It's something that'd be hard to write around as well, as it was the mass conversion of transporters and replicators across the Alpha and Beta Quadrant powers to cross-universe transporters that allowed the Grigori to nearly wipe out humans/klingons/etc. in the first place. As for Vash, unfortunately I can't think of any way to spoil this without the warning for what work I'm spoiling being a spoiler in and of itself, so I'll have to leave it open despite it being for a recent work: a present-day Vash showed up just recently in Q Are Cordially Invited.
Also, WTC only referenced a time travel incident with the Red Orbs of Jalbador when refering to the actual events of the series, without refering to any of the details around what that incident; I figured it was his way of refering to Millennium while eliding the actual details, sort of saying "something like that happened, though not exactly what was seen in Millennium". Christopher can probably confirm/deny that himself, though, if he sees this post.
Now...the little thing about the very end. I love it. A lot.
And I can't wait to see if my suspicions regarding such are confirmed.
"Control" indeed. And of course they don't know his identity. Could he be...possibly...?
PLEASE, let it be so!
Care to elaborate as to who you think Control might be?
Sure!
I honesty think/hope...
It's Sloan.
After all, there's some precedent in this same book, with the idea that
Cole's faked his death, surprising Bashir with his reappearance.
And of course...Sloan faked his death before, in "Inter Arna".
And of course...Sloan faked his death before, in "Inter Arna".
BTW...though Thrawn and I have often disagreed spectacularly in the past, as far as I'm concerned, he and I are in total agreement, on this point:
Considering Mack's statement above on his original intent, it's a shame, again, that we never "saw" Sarina's actual revelation to Julian. Suddenly the first book with them post-Zero Sum Game has Bashir reflecting on Sarina telling him everything some time before said book's events.
Of course, there's the other issues with their relationship: for one, the fact that the whole point of "Chrysalis" seemed to be that Bashir's loneliness was leading him to project feelings of "true love" onto Sarina (which threatened to send her back into her former catatonic state)--that he wasn't in love with her, so much as his idealized vision of what she represented.
And as Ezri seemed to feel in Zero Sum Game, it's darn well possible he's just doing it all over again.
I just finished and thoroughly enjoyed it. Bashir and Sarina are some of my least favourite characters to read. We already know who they are, what they're about and to me they're so bland. But I can't fault the author since he's carrying on the characterization created by others.
I do love the other characters though. They're not all one dimensional.
I do love the other characters though. They're not all one dimensional.
I'm enjoying Bashir's ongoing arc but to me every former Starfleet character is always a Starfleet character. Sooner or later he's got to be back in uniform, Imho.
What about Spock?
He was in the back of my mind again. Didn't he reactivate his commission of a mission in one of the early 2000s novels? Or, wasn't it threatened to him by the Federation of the alternate reality in one of the unpublished novels?
Once a Starfleet officer, always a Starfleet officer. No wonder all the councilors still wear their uniforms.
I finished the book earlier this morning and I have to say I really loved it. I actually feel that Bashir is one of my favorite characters in Trek. Particularly, I liked his characterization on the show and all the growth he went through. He's so different in season 7 than season 1 because of all he experienced with the war and his own past, and it's a great journey to watch on-screen. I wasnt as big a fan in some relaunch novels though because I felt like nothing was happening with him. I can recall one past novel several years ago where Bashir was thinking to himself about all his friends on the station who had moved on and he was still there doing the same old thing. That stuck with me because I felt the same about his character, he was mostly being used just when the story near DS9 needed a doc. Thus, I enjoy whenever he gets mixed up with 31 (especially his last Breen mission) and I loved his storyline in The Fall novels. Finally, he was being used in a way that was unique to his character and not just, the doctor who lives over that way.
I do agree with others on Sarina though, I feel like I could take her or leave her in most cases beacause of how she's been portrayed in the past. I dont mind her though as long as she isn't the focus of too many chapters, which she really wasn't here.
At first, I wasn't excited about reading Mirror Universe stuff in this book but I really loved all the Dominion story and there were some great twists there that I wasn't expecting.
In summary, this has been one of the better Trek books I've read all year and it's got me really excited for the next novel. In fact though, I've really enjoy many of the books to come out this year and in general I think they have a great group of core writers right now and the stories are starting to gel together quite well.
In terms of Bashir getting back in uniform eventually, I think its what he wants so it could happen but personally I'd rather he didn't for a while as it provides a unique POV that we don't get from too many other established characters.
I do agree with others on Sarina though, I feel like I could take her or leave her in most cases beacause of how she's been portrayed in the past. I dont mind her though as long as she isn't the focus of too many chapters, which she really wasn't here.
At first, I wasn't excited about reading Mirror Universe stuff in this book but I really loved all the Dominion story and there were some great twists there that I wasn't expecting.
In summary, this has been one of the better Trek books I've read all year and it's got me really excited for the next novel. In fact though, I've really enjoy many of the books to come out this year and in general I think they have a great group of core writers right now and the stories are starting to gel together quite well.
In terms of Bashir getting back in uniform eventually, I think its what he wants so it could happen but personally I'd rather he didn't for a while as it provides a unique POV that we don't get from too many other established characters.
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That sounds really boring, and a little depressing, to be honest. There should be life in Star Trek beyond Starfleet.
Bashir's a character who is doing very interesting things. I look forward to seeing him do much more.
This, absolutely! Which feels a lot like how Data is shaping up to be.
I'm just gonna chime in and say that I rather like Sarina. The thing that intrigues me about her is that she's seems so much more of a pragmatist, in contrast to Bashir's idealism. She's someone who's spent so much of her life in a state of helplessness, yet has embraced a career built around the use of power and force -- intelligence operative, security officer. This is also reflected in the juxtaposition of Sarina's physicality -- she looks so waif-like and delicate -- with her actual abilities as a genetically enhanced Human.
Sarina's a character built on some interesting dualities. I hope we see more of them come into conflict with each-other, but I don't find her nearly as bland as some others.
Sarina's a character built on some interesting dualities. I hope we see more of them come into conflict with each-other, but I don't find her nearly as bland as some others.
Just finished Disavowed this morning. I really enjoyed it! At first, I thought that there were a few too many threads from disparate parts of the novelverse being used--and I also thought, at first, that Bashir being so quickly acquitted was a problem. As the book came to an end, though, I began to see how elegantly it all actually came together, and I revised my opinion further upwards.
Random thoughts:
- We get confirmation that Michael Eddington is indeed the Galactic Commonwealth's head of government and head of state, rather than just being the presiding officer of the Commonwealth Assembly. (Rise Like Lions left both interpretations open.)
- Following up on that, I find myself wondering what the full formal title of the Chairman is. "Chairman of the Commonwealth Assembly?" "Chairman of the Galactic Commonwealth?" I'm a pedant, I know.
- "Chairman," used as the title for a head of state, always makes me think of Mao, and of how the Chinese head of state's title was translated as "Chairman" rather than "President" for many years. Was there a reason you chose the title of "Chairman" for the Commonwealth, David Mack -- an intention to evoke certain connotations, or was it just that you needed a distinct title that hadn't been used yet?
- We get confirmation that Pran, who led the Breen Militia during the final days of the Dominion War, succeeded Brax in March 2384 after the initial Tirana III operation failed. Pran, ironically, now turns out to be responsible for setting the Tirana III operation in mostion. I wonder if he's going to suffer the same fate as his predecessor? The Confederate Congress can't be pleased.
- I absolutely love the way Mack and the other novelists have been able to develop the Breen into such a vibrant, interesting society. You get a real sense of the Breen as a rising power, and it follows up nicely on final season's depiction of the Breen as a largely mysterious force that had now made itself a major threat to the Federation. As always, the Breen's maniacal obsession with the illusion of meritocracy makes for a fascinating alien culture.
Also -- Jesus, these guys really like to make their cars go fast. First they want the quantum slipstream, then they want the jaunt drives....
- The novels finally give us an official name for the Bajoran state! It's the Third Republic of Bajor. The numbering is a bit unusual by real-life standards -- people talk about the Fifth French Republic, for instance, but that's an unofficial name used to differentiate one period of French constitutional organization from another; the name "French Republic" didn't change between the fourth and fifth republics. But, hey, this is an alien species, so their ideas about the identity of the state vs. describing the constitutional arrangements can differ from Humans'.
- Mental note: Memory Beta is going to need to change to the following article headings now: "Third Republic of Bajor;" "First Minister of the Third Republic of Bajor;" "Chamber of Ministers of the Third Republic of Bajor;" "Federation Councillor for the Third Republic of Bajor"....
- The idea of a government consisting of mostly former slaves is fascinating. I find myself wondering about the technical viability of such a society. When the Democratic Republic of the Congo declared independence from Belgium, for instance, it had less than a hundred people who had master's degrees, and I think it's fair to say that a lack of technical expertise and education hurt the DR Congo's ability to form a stable society. The Commonwealth obviously has the advantage of being able to draw upon Memory Omega -- but would it face large-scale problems in organizing civic society if its populace was mostly denied a change at even basic education? Or maybe the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance kept intact the old education infrastructures -- that would make sense, given that Jennifer Sisko was an accomplished scientist, even while still being held in bondage.
- There's a reference on page 60 to the Commonwealth having its own Starfleet, a defense and exploration agency. Yet the Commonwealth's fleet seems to be commanded by Memory Omega, so I'm a little confused about the relationship between the Commonwealth Starfleet and Memory Omega. Maybe M.O. has just become the chief branch of the Commonwealth Starfleet?
- Mirror Saavik has officially become a far more interesting and well-developed character than her Prime Universe counterpart. (Okay, maybe I'm being unfair -- I haven't read Unspoken Truths yet.) She comes across as being mostly very admirable in Disavowed, and one can understand the hero worship she has seemingly engendered. Yet her morality is still sometimes ambiguous -- much as she believes in the Commonwealth's ideals of universal sentient rights, and even though she does not believe in the death penalty, she still condemns Cole and his team to permanent exile without a trial or due process of law. She still makes herself judge, jury, and prison warden, in essence. And it's easy to forget that she's still partially responsible for the genocide of the Trill Symbionts.
- Speaking of the Trill - Ozla Graniv is back! It's always nice to get a sense of what the general public knows about the major political events in ST. Sometimes I think there's a tendency to just assume that fantastic events would be classified somehow, so it's nice to see that the truth about Bashir's actions are now public record. And it's especially nice to see that President zh'Tarash got Julian a pardon -- even if the only Federation world wiling to give him a license is Andor.
Also, how did Sarina's prior work for Starfleet Intelligence leak to the press? It's gonna be awful hard for her to keep working for S.I. or the FSA if that's public record.
- Julian and Sarina's house seems pretty damn big and luxurious; I wonder if Julian's getting a really, really generous pension from the Andorian government? We know from A Ceremony of Losses that as of October 2385, there was a great deal of poverty and economic inequality on Andor post-Borg Invasion and post-secession. I would hope that rejoining the Federation would restore Andorian economics to a state of general abundance, but it still seems implausible that Bashir could afford such a great house in a world with that kind of poverty just three months later without some help.
- I really liked the idea that the Founders of the Mirror Universe are just as dedicated to law and order, but aren't egomaniacal fascists bent on conquering all Solids as potential threats. I find myself curious if perhaps their Great Link underwent some kind of social change? The Jem'Hadar and the Vorta still seem to have been genetically engineered to revere the Founders as gods. Perhaps in the past, the Mirror Founders had embraced the kind of fascism that leads to deciding to engineer worshipful slave races, but later on they abandoned this? It would explain why the Mirror Founders don't regard themselves as being above Dominion law, and yet they still have genetically engineered worshippers.
- Section 31's spying on the Mirror Universe would seem to follow up on the revelation in 2007's The Good That Men Do that the organization knew about the Mirror Universe as far back as 2155.
- The final fate of the Spetzkar company was deliciously ironic. It also nicely explained just how it is that Commonwealth jaunt ships are making their way into the Prime Universe -- they aren't, but this was a predestination paradox. As is often the case, Mack lets loose with some beautiful prose in the midst of his action thrillers: I am become the agent of my people's destruction. I am history's fool. He and Una McCormack should get into a "beautiful prose"-off one day.
- Speaking of the Spetzkar and the Special Research Division... am I the only one who gets a bit of a Nazi vibe off of some of these names? Non-name brand Nazis can be fun bad guys.
- I loved the fact that we get a prominent starship named after something non-Human in the free starship ShiKahr ("FSS ShiKahr?") I wonder what the USS ShiKahr in the Prime Universe is like.
- The description of the jaunt ships as having a ringed engine hull was fascinating. When I first read Rise Like Lions, I had just imagined the free starship Enterprise as being the Mirror Universe's version of a Sovereign-class starship like the Enterprise-E. Reading Disavowed, I found I had a hard time not imagining the jaunt ships as resembling the Suurok-class Vulcan ships from ENT. I wonder how everyone else pictures them?
- The revelation that Section 31 has known Julian and Sarina are trying to infiltrate them all along was a welcome twist. It makes for a much more interesting antagonist if they're not too foolish.
- And yet, once again, we have a Section 31 operation that goes to hell and damn near leads to disaster for the Federation, because the organization constantly underestimates its enemies. This continues the pattern of Thirty-One constantly causing blowback established in the canon and continued in the Section 31 miniseries from 2001. They think they can pull one over on Memory Omega, and their arrogance damn near leads to hostilities with Omega and to the Prime Breen gaining a jaunt drive.
- Finally, I loved the look we got at Section 31's inner workings in the final pages. There's a plethora of new Thirty-One leaders to document... and we find out that it has a leader code-named "Control!" Too cool. Shades of John le Carre!
- Speaking of John le Carre, I'd be lying if I were to say I didn't immediately picture Control as John Hurt.
- One of Section 31's key leaders is apparently an Andorian thaan. I wonder where his loyalties laid while Andor was an independent world? Would he have been allowed to continue serving Section 31, or would his loyalties have been seen as suspect? (Of course, he may not be an Andorian citizen. Maybe he's from Rigel or whatever, and is only biologically Andorian.)
- I find myself skeptical that Control is Sloan, though I wouldn't mind that twist. Personally, I'm with Deranged Nasat -- it's clearly Patrick.
- I love the fact that 13 years after the original Section 31 miniseries foreshadowed a conflict between Our Heroes and the bureau, and laid the groundwork to have each of the captains discover them and work against them, we're finally seeing more movement on that arc. We know from The Good That Men Do seven years ago that Section 31 will be defeated and brought to justice -- but how?
- Section 31's position within Starfleet and the UFP reminds me of Hydra's within SHIELD and the United States in Captain America: The Winter Soldier. I think this is going to become my go-to comparison the next time someone tries to argue they're a legit part of the Federation government.
Random thoughts:
- We get confirmation that Michael Eddington is indeed the Galactic Commonwealth's head of government and head of state, rather than just being the presiding officer of the Commonwealth Assembly. (Rise Like Lions left both interpretations open.)
- Following up on that, I find myself wondering what the full formal title of the Chairman is. "Chairman of the Commonwealth Assembly?" "Chairman of the Galactic Commonwealth?" I'm a pedant, I know.
- "Chairman," used as the title for a head of state, always makes me think of Mao, and of how the Chinese head of state's title was translated as "Chairman" rather than "President" for many years. Was there a reason you chose the title of "Chairman" for the Commonwealth, David Mack -- an intention to evoke certain connotations, or was it just that you needed a distinct title that hadn't been used yet?
- We get confirmation that Pran, who led the Breen Militia during the final days of the Dominion War, succeeded Brax in March 2384 after the initial Tirana III operation failed. Pran, ironically, now turns out to be responsible for setting the Tirana III operation in mostion. I wonder if he's going to suffer the same fate as his predecessor? The Confederate Congress can't be pleased.
- I absolutely love the way Mack and the other novelists have been able to develop the Breen into such a vibrant, interesting society. You get a real sense of the Breen as a rising power, and it follows up nicely on final season's depiction of the Breen as a largely mysterious force that had now made itself a major threat to the Federation. As always, the Breen's maniacal obsession with the illusion of meritocracy makes for a fascinating alien culture.
Also -- Jesus, these guys really like to make their cars go fast. First they want the quantum slipstream, then they want the jaunt drives....
- The novels finally give us an official name for the Bajoran state! It's the Third Republic of Bajor. The numbering is a bit unusual by real-life standards -- people talk about the Fifth French Republic, for instance, but that's an unofficial name used to differentiate one period of French constitutional organization from another; the name "French Republic" didn't change between the fourth and fifth republics. But, hey, this is an alien species, so their ideas about the identity of the state vs. describing the constitutional arrangements can differ from Humans'.
- Mental note: Memory Beta is going to need to change to the following article headings now: "Third Republic of Bajor;" "First Minister of the Third Republic of Bajor;" "Chamber of Ministers of the Third Republic of Bajor;" "Federation Councillor for the Third Republic of Bajor"....
- The idea of a government consisting of mostly former slaves is fascinating. I find myself wondering about the technical viability of such a society. When the Democratic Republic of the Congo declared independence from Belgium, for instance, it had less than a hundred people who had master's degrees, and I think it's fair to say that a lack of technical expertise and education hurt the DR Congo's ability to form a stable society. The Commonwealth obviously has the advantage of being able to draw upon Memory Omega -- but would it face large-scale problems in organizing civic society if its populace was mostly denied a change at even basic education? Or maybe the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance kept intact the old education infrastructures -- that would make sense, given that Jennifer Sisko was an accomplished scientist, even while still being held in bondage.
- There's a reference on page 60 to the Commonwealth having its own Starfleet, a defense and exploration agency. Yet the Commonwealth's fleet seems to be commanded by Memory Omega, so I'm a little confused about the relationship between the Commonwealth Starfleet and Memory Omega. Maybe M.O. has just become the chief branch of the Commonwealth Starfleet?
- Mirror Saavik has officially become a far more interesting and well-developed character than her Prime Universe counterpart. (Okay, maybe I'm being unfair -- I haven't read Unspoken Truths yet.) She comes across as being mostly very admirable in Disavowed, and one can understand the hero worship she has seemingly engendered. Yet her morality is still sometimes ambiguous -- much as she believes in the Commonwealth's ideals of universal sentient rights, and even though she does not believe in the death penalty, she still condemns Cole and his team to permanent exile without a trial or due process of law. She still makes herself judge, jury, and prison warden, in essence. And it's easy to forget that she's still partially responsible for the genocide of the Trill Symbionts.
- Speaking of the Trill - Ozla Graniv is back! It's always nice to get a sense of what the general public knows about the major political events in ST. Sometimes I think there's a tendency to just assume that fantastic events would be classified somehow, so it's nice to see that the truth about Bashir's actions are now public record. And it's especially nice to see that President zh'Tarash got Julian a pardon -- even if the only Federation world wiling to give him a license is Andor.
Also, how did Sarina's prior work for Starfleet Intelligence leak to the press? It's gonna be awful hard for her to keep working for S.I. or the FSA if that's public record.
- Julian and Sarina's house seems pretty damn big and luxurious; I wonder if Julian's getting a really, really generous pension from the Andorian government? We know from A Ceremony of Losses that as of October 2385, there was a great deal of poverty and economic inequality on Andor post-Borg Invasion and post-secession. I would hope that rejoining the Federation would restore Andorian economics to a state of general abundance, but it still seems implausible that Bashir could afford such a great house in a world with that kind of poverty just three months later without some help.
- I really liked the idea that the Founders of the Mirror Universe are just as dedicated to law and order, but aren't egomaniacal fascists bent on conquering all Solids as potential threats. I find myself curious if perhaps their Great Link underwent some kind of social change? The Jem'Hadar and the Vorta still seem to have been genetically engineered to revere the Founders as gods. Perhaps in the past, the Mirror Founders had embraced the kind of fascism that leads to deciding to engineer worshipful slave races, but later on they abandoned this? It would explain why the Mirror Founders don't regard themselves as being above Dominion law, and yet they still have genetically engineered worshippers.
- Section 31's spying on the Mirror Universe would seem to follow up on the revelation in 2007's The Good That Men Do that the organization knew about the Mirror Universe as far back as 2155.
- The final fate of the Spetzkar company was deliciously ironic. It also nicely explained just how it is that Commonwealth jaunt ships are making their way into the Prime Universe -- they aren't, but this was a predestination paradox. As is often the case, Mack lets loose with some beautiful prose in the midst of his action thrillers: I am become the agent of my people's destruction. I am history's fool. He and Una McCormack should get into a "beautiful prose"-off one day.
- Speaking of the Spetzkar and the Special Research Division... am I the only one who gets a bit of a Nazi vibe off of some of these names? Non-name brand Nazis can be fun bad guys.
- I loved the fact that we get a prominent starship named after something non-Human in the free starship ShiKahr ("FSS ShiKahr?") I wonder what the USS ShiKahr in the Prime Universe is like.
- The description of the jaunt ships as having a ringed engine hull was fascinating. When I first read Rise Like Lions, I had just imagined the free starship Enterprise as being the Mirror Universe's version of a Sovereign-class starship like the Enterprise-E. Reading Disavowed, I found I had a hard time not imagining the jaunt ships as resembling the Suurok-class Vulcan ships from ENT. I wonder how everyone else pictures them?
- The revelation that Section 31 has known Julian and Sarina are trying to infiltrate them all along was a welcome twist. It makes for a much more interesting antagonist if they're not too foolish.
- And yet, once again, we have a Section 31 operation that goes to hell and damn near leads to disaster for the Federation, because the organization constantly underestimates its enemies. This continues the pattern of Thirty-One constantly causing blowback established in the canon and continued in the Section 31 miniseries from 2001. They think they can pull one over on Memory Omega, and their arrogance damn near leads to hostilities with Omega and to the Prime Breen gaining a jaunt drive.
- Finally, I loved the look we got at Section 31's inner workings in the final pages. There's a plethora of new Thirty-One leaders to document... and we find out that it has a leader code-named "Control!" Too cool. Shades of John le Carre!
- Speaking of John le Carre, I'd be lying if I were to say I didn't immediately picture Control as John Hurt.
- One of Section 31's key leaders is apparently an Andorian thaan. I wonder where his loyalties laid while Andor was an independent world? Would he have been allowed to continue serving Section 31, or would his loyalties have been seen as suspect? (Of course, he may not be an Andorian citizen. Maybe he's from Rigel or whatever, and is only biologically Andorian.)
- I find myself skeptical that Control is Sloan, though I wouldn't mind that twist. Personally, I'm with Deranged Nasat -- it's clearly Patrick.
- I love the fact that 13 years after the original Section 31 miniseries foreshadowed a conflict between Our Heroes and the bureau, and laid the groundwork to have each of the captains discover them and work against them, we're finally seeing more movement on that arc. We know from The Good That Men Do seven years ago that Section 31 will be defeated and brought to justice -- but how?
- Section 31's position within Starfleet and the UFP reminds me of Hydra's within SHIELD and the United States in Captain America: The Winter Soldier. I think this is going to become my go-to comparison the next time someone tries to argue they're a legit part of the Federation government.
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