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Rings of Power S3/Hunt for Gollum Anticipation and JRR Tolkien Discussion thread

Middle Earth isn't real, and nothing really says that there aren't black Hobbits or elves, just that the named ones we see are white. Did Tolkien intend for the characters to be white? Probably, but he was born in 1892 and while his work manages to avoid stuff we'd now consider problematic in a way most work from his generation didn't he still wasn't perfect and he had his own biases. Literally nothing changes in the story if some of them aren't white, so there is no reason to not have more diverse casts, especially with less important characters. Yeah the humans might lean toward less diversity because of how the human civilizations are set up, but nothing is different with more racially diverse Hobbits, elves, or dwarves.

I broadly agree with this, but I do want to note I think Rings of Power handled diversity poorly, like a lot of recent fantasy productions.

Like take the Harfoots as an example. They're an insular tribe of hobbits who live as hunter-gatherers (or close enough). They also have visibly black and white members of the tribe.

How does that work, exactly? They don't seem to have different racial identities or some sort of race-based caste system. So why didn't all the black hobbits and white hobbits intermarry generations ago, becoming an even brown? Do fantasy genetics work differently, somehow?

Alternatively, maybe this is just theatre-style casting, and the race of the actors is not meant to reflect on the race of the characters - which I think is a defensible choice. However, the story makes it clear that Nori's mother, Marigold (played by a native Australian actress) is her stepmother, which seems to have been a choice made because they didn't think the audience would swallow a lily-white Harfoot having a black mother. So this implies the color of the Harfoots is a real thing, that exists in universe.

IMHO, they should have just made all the Harfoots nonwhite, because this would solve the issue of indigenous people being pretty racially homogenous while still allowing for diverse casting. And IIRC, within canon it's noted the Harfoots are darker than the other hobbits anyway.

You can draw the same conclusion across the other races, as well. Like what if all the dwarves we saw in the series were black, but the elves were white? it would add a little additional subtext to the story that would be interesting.

IMHO, diversity within a setting in a fantasy story should be largely limited to big, cosmopolitan cities, and there should be at least a little bit of worldbuilding referencing it. I liked how Carnival Row handed it, for example. Human skin color wasn't a major issue compared to the Fae being the subaltern group, but they did reference black people having migrated into the city from the "Pharonic Coast" several generations past.
 
Gandalf has arrived...


 
Genuine question: what is your objection to The Stranger being Gandalf?
Timeline is the first objection considering Gandalf didn't come to Middle-earth until the Third Age which was predicated on a particular set of factors separate from the Second Age. Secondly, Gandalf was the safe, expected answer when they could've done something fresh and original like using the Blue Wizards, whose origins are murky and there are contradictory thoughts about whether they were Second or Third Age.

I'm not someone who super stringent on precise timelines, especially since adapting Tolkien requires reworking of time scales. My biggest issue is the creative thought...and I say that as a massive Gandalf fan. I was far more interested in seeing different wizards not "young" Gandalf.
 
Timeline is the first objection considering Gandalf didn't come to Middle-earth until the Third Age which was predicated on a particular set of factors separate from the Second Age.

This is what I thought your objection might be, but I've got evidence of Gandalf having come to Middle-earth in the Second Age straight from Tolkien's expanded writings.

Peoples of Middle-earth:
"That Olórin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing has yet been said of this"

Unfinished Tales:
And on a time Olórin came to Galadriel, who dwelt now under the trees of Greenwood the Great; and they had long speech together. For the years of her exile began to lie heavy on the Lady of the Noldor, and she longed for news of her kin and for the blessed land of her birth, but was not permitted yet to forsake Middle-earth. And when Olórin had told her many tidings she sighed, and said: ‘I grieve in Middle-earth, for leaves fall and flowers fade; and my heart yearns, remembering trees and grass that do not die. I would have these in my home.’ Then Olórin said: ‘Would you then have the Elessar?’
And Galadriel said: ‘Where now is the Stone of Eärendil? And Enerdhil is gone who made it.’ ‘Who knows?’ said Olórin. ‘Surely,’ said Galadriel, ‘they have passed over Sea, as almost all fair things beside. And must Middle-earth then fade and perish for ever?’ ‘That is its fate,’ said Olórin. ‘Yet for a little while that might be amended, if the Elessar should return. For a little, until the Days of Men are come.’ ‘If – and yet how could that be,’ said Galadriel. ‘For surely the Valar are now removed and Middle-earth is far from their thought, and all who cling to it are under a shadow.’
‘It is not so,’ said Olórin. ‘Their eyes are not dimmed nor their hearts hardened. In token of which look upon this!’ And he held before her the Elessar, and she looked on it and wondered. And Olórin said: ‘This I bring to you from Yavanna. Use it as you may, and for a while you shall make the land of your dwelling the fairest place in Middle-earth. But it is not for you to possess. You shall hand it on when the time comes. For before you grow weary, and at last forsake Middle-earth one shall come who is to receive it, and his name shall be that of the stone: Elessar he shall be called.’
 
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First images of Jamie Campbell Bower as Celeborn and Morfydd Clark as Galadriel from 'The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power' season 3.
 
This is what I thought your objection might be, but I've got evidence of Gandalf having come to Middle-earth in the Second Age straight from Tolkien's expanded writings.

Peoples of Middle-earth:


Unfinished Tales:
Missed this earlier.

I haven't read any of The History of Middle-earth volumes, so I appreciate those quotes. I'll admit there is some wiggle room on the Tolkien side of things.

But my second objection remains.
 
But my second objection remains.

Which is fair.

Personally, though, don't think there was any better choice than making The Stranger Olorin/Gandalf (despite Payne & McKay's insistence that it wasnt their original plan to do so), especially given that they (Payne and McKay) have openly admitted that they wanted to link TRoP to the Middle-earth Cinematic Universe as conceived by Peter Jackson and Co. but couldn't legally do so directly.

The fact that, as I noted, Tolkien himself provided evidence of Olorin's presence during the Second Age is a bonus.
 
Gandalf has arrived...


Should be interesting.
 
Two quick questions: Are the articles on the Empire website the same as the ones in the magazine? When does this issue come out?
I just checked on Libby and they still have the Odyssey issue. I was gonna get the magazine when it comes out on Libby, so if it's the same articles I'll just read them then.
 
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