Rey in The Force Awakens (Possible Spoilers)

[Venardhi]

She is good at all of the things she needs to be good at, when she needs to be good at them. That is close enough.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

These aren't consistent character flaws

So you admit, they are flaws. Good to know.

I recommend you watch the video. You can't list "flaws" that go against what actually happens in the movie, example releasing the monsters and then never actually being in real danger from it. Being captured by Ren, then immediately escaping using abilities she should have no knowledge or ability of. Being "scared" of the lightsaber, then using all these force abilities she should have no way of using or knowledge of. It's just awful, they're not flaws when they're going against what we're seeing on screen.

Your critique's support is a YT video and not the actual film itself? Denying what happens onscreen (per my list) ... but then requiring comments to be based on what happens onscreen?



Okaaaay ...

Again, I invite your critiques to discuss specifics, rather than a blatantly clumsy, lazy, and obviously misapplied term.

Honestly, Rey's character is not above critique. But let's do so based on the specifics of the film, rather on the predetermined, dismissive, and myopic term your posts continually use as a crutch.

No, I'm giving you a video because it articulates quickly what my point is.

Ah. So, per the video, this point is, explicitly, "She's too good at stuff."

Now there is a truly informed, eloquent, and worthwhile critique.

Why is Rey being "too good at stuff" such a problematic development? Especially considering how "good at stuff" Anakin and Luke were in episodes 1 & 4.

Flaws are consistent character flaws that disappear or are overcome, making a minor mistake which leads to nothing bad happening to her is not a flaw. A flaw would be cowardice like with Finn, or arrogance like Han Solo. There isn't one time in the movie where she is in trouble, she is completely able to handle herself the whole time against all the odds.

Come now. That's just an embarrassing, biased statement. Of course there were moments when she was in trouble. And, explicitly, she needed help to overcome them (the scene where Chewie says that it was Finn's idea to go back for Rey, and she acknowledges this by hugging Finn ... and later thanking him).

she beats everyone up and never needs any help, she is perfect at everything.

Again, this is a silly statement, completely ignoring the fact that - as you've already previously stated - she's taken captive, thrust against a tree, and nearly knocked over a cliff.

She overcomes this by way of her growing abilities with the Force. It's possible that those abilities are OP, but it's also possible that there's a legitimate explanation for them.

Not sure why your comments continue to ignore these facts, as well as the reality that we're destined to learn more about her in the next film ...

More's the pity, as they say ...

She shows piloting skills far exceeding her experience.

Except that ... you don't know that, yet. Maybe she does have experience that will be revealed in the next installment.

She sets aside her fears and reluctance and immediately bests Kylo, who in spite of his injuries was kicking her ass moments earlier.

Ironically, if you listen to the (rather unhinged) youtube rant posted by Phily B, the commentator admits that, "a janitor was almost able to defeat a Force user in a lightsaber fight." So Rey, being Force sensitive, and ultimately accepting and allowing the Force to flow through her, defeating Ren is not unrealistic or implausible.

There isn't an inherent problem in her having these abilities, a lot of us just would have liked for her to have to earn them rather than simply innately have them if only she accepts her awesomeness.

Luke literally does two things (intentionally, at least) with the force in the entire first movie. He uses it briefly in his lesson with Ben on the Falcon and uses it to aim the torpedo that blew up the Death Star. No telekinesis, no mind tricks, no acrobatics or swordplay.

Again, we don't know her history. I admit, there's reason for skepticism and a potential for a significant oversight in character development. But considering the deliberate mystery surrounding her past, as well as the fact that this is clearly the first of three installments, there may yet be an explanation for why she's able to so rapidly become proficient with the Force.

As such, while questioning her abilities is entirely valid, drawing conclusions is altogether premature.

 

[Makarov]

Aside from all the mary sue debate I thought her performance was just alright, she kept doing the same over the top grimace face throughout a lot of the scenes, and seemed like a kid in a candy store anytime any of the old mythology stuff was brought up. I mean it's not bad, but people knock the prequel trilogy acting and I didn't think hers was in any way out of those movie's leagues.

 

[davejames]

She shows force abilities more comparable to Luke in RotJ without any on-screen training.

Well hell, Ezra on Rebels has shown more force ability than Luke ever did (making some pretty huge jumps in early episodes without any training, for instance). And Obi-Wan in the prequels (and on the now-canon TCW) had far more ability than he ever demonstrated in ANH. So I'm not sure Luke is really the best person to judge anything by when it comes to this.

The force powers have clearly been dialed up quite a bit since the OT, and the new movies are simply continuing that trend. And if Rey happens to be a lot more gifted or attuned to the Force than Luke ever was, so what? It's already been shown that some (like Anakin or Yoda) are a lot stronger with it than others, and for all we know Rey just may be at that level.

I certainly had my issues with the movie, but Rey being "too perfect and flawless" was definitely not one of them. And not something that even crossed my mind, frankly.

 

[Venardhi]

It didn't occur to me while watching the movie, but it tugs at my brain whenever I think back on it.

Re: power levels. As with most things, I appreciate the restraint of the OT on this front. The Jedi in the PT were basically cartoon characters for all their hyperactive jumping around and twirling lightsabers.

 

[Mage]

Wait, what? Critics everywhere are praising Ridley's fantastic, multilayered performance and what a great and compelling character Rey was... and yet because she's able to pilot the Falcon and defend herself with a lightsaber against an injured opponent people in here think she's a crappy character now? Say huh?

I think it was made pretty clear that she had the same natural Force abilities that Luke and Anakin both had, and yet the whole time Ridley made it apparent that this was someone who had some serious fears and doubts all the way through.

It's not like she was presented as some heroic and invincible Supergirl figure in this movie or anything. And in fact during a lot of that lightsaber battle I remember her being pretty much on the defense or on the retreat from Kylo's attacks, as he slowly backed her up to the cliff. She may have got in some lucky blows, but for the most part it looked like she was just doing her best to survive.

She shows force abilities more comparable to Luke in RotJ without any on-screen training.

She shows piloting skills far exceeding her experience.

She sets aside her fears and reluctance and immediately bests Kylo, who in spite of his injuries was kicking her ass moments earlier.

There isn't an inherent problem in her having these abilities, a lot of us just would have liked for her to have to earn them rather than simply innately have them if only she accepts her awesomeness.

Luke literally does two things (intentionally, at least) with the force in the entire first movie. He uses it briefly in his lesson with Ben on the Falcon and uses it to aim the torpedo that blew up the Death Star. No telekinesis, no mind tricks, no acrobatics or swordplay.

So? Perhaps her ability to channel the Force is stronger then Luke's. Also, she had heard of it, in rumors and stories and legends. She's aware of it. Luke never did. He has quite some build-in prejudice to overcome about hokey-pokey religions.

Accept it for what it is, someone who appereantly has such a strong connection to the Force, she can do these things more naturally, and has for more convidence in herself. She WANTS to believe, and meeting Han grounded her believes and made them more real, making it easier for her to believe in her abilities, much more then Luke ever could at first.

 

[MacLeod]

^^ Read the thread. Your critiques have been consistently ignoring her flaws.

But if your critiques truly require the remediation:

• She's trapped by her past (repeated expressions of a need to return to Jakku).
• She's overconfident (inadvertently releases the Rathtars)
• She's afraid of her own abilities (rejection of Maz's advice)
• Unwilling to face the truth (runs away into the Forest)
• Is captured by Ren
• Despite escaping Ren's grasp on Starkiller Base, needs help to escape
• Is bested by Ren in the duel ... until she accepts the Force

And, again, as I've stated before, her rapid development of Force abilities is potentially problematic. But her character's past is deliberately shrouded in mystery. So to assume it's purely a matter of wish-fulfillment (aka she's a "Mary Sue") is to both ignore what we see on screen, and to ignore the fact that we don't yet know enough about her character. As such, your critique's use of the term is blatantly dismissive of what has transpired onscreen and what has been, explicitly, kept hidden thus far.


Once more, I invite your critique to engage with specific discussions of the character, rather than the weak, lazy attempts to clumsily use a vague generalization. Will your critiques do so? Or will they continue to be vague and lazy and weak?

These aren't consistent character flaws....I recommend you watch the video. You can't list "flaws" that go against what actually happens in the movie, example releasing the monsters and then never actually being in real danger from it. Being captured by Ren, then immediately escaping using abilities she should have no knowledge or ability of. Being "scared" of the lightsaber, then using all these force abilities she should have no way of using or knowledge of. It's just awful, they're not flaws when they're going against what we're seeing on screen.

Well it's implied she's heard stories about the fall of the Empire, Jedi etc.. so couldn't one of those stories have included the Jedi's mind trick aility.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Also, just because Rey defeats an injured, unhinged Ren (during their mental duel, as well as their physical one) doesn't mean she's capable of doing anything.

That was my point, yeah. Ren/Ben is emotionally unstable, not fully trained and seriously injured at that point. He had just killed his own father and taken a blaster shot to his side from a weapon that we were shown how powerful it is.

The fact that she managed to hold her own against him twice does not mean she is perfect. It just means he isn't a second Darth Vader yet which is precisely what he's worried about. I don't even think that makes him less scary.

More generally, though, Rey is a character who demonstrates that, while she needs help to be rescued (the arrival of Finn, Solo, and Chewie), she's not helpless and is perfectly capable of resisting all on her own. She quite explicitly avoids the "damsel in distress" trope ("Stop taking my hand!") and demonstrates real growth (from fixating on the past and a refusal to face "the truth" as Maz puts it, to accepting the Force and living in the moment).

You see, from a meta point of view that is exactly the point they had to make. Considering all the terrible ways female characters are usually written and treated in movies it was important to show that this movie is different.
Usually the female heroes will go through a period of "damsel in distress" first, often with some violence porn about how somebody tortures, abuses, hurts them.
The scene in the torture chamber was the perfect setup for this and... it just went completely differently. In other movies you would've seen the villain hurt her, maybe even sexually assault her (like licking her face while she's bound). We've all seen it many times before (including Star Wars, Jabba and Leia). You would've seen her cry and be at her weakest. But they didn't go there. He tried to break her will... but she resisted.

There's a very obvious pattern in pop culture that says women as heroes are only accepted (by a male audience?) if they start out as very weak (damsel in distress) and get harmed (torture, assault, danger) until they overcome it. TFA did not fall into this trap. It does not provide this stereotypical character development. Instead we meet Rey as an already independent and competent woman who does have experienced her share of trauma but isn't dragged down by it.

I'm so damn thankful for how they treated this. If in order to avoid all these super-annoying tropes (and they're really fucking annoying) they had to bring her a little closer to Mary Sue territory... I really don't give a shit.

There's some nice character growth for her in the movie and that works just fine. Plus there are reasons for why she can do the things she does.

There's also a reason the "Mary Sue" trope has a female name. Male viewers never give a shit when the male hero is super-awesome. But when there's a woman they go: "Oh, how unrealistic."

Fuck that.
With a lightsaber.

 

[Venardhi]

In my experience super-awesome flawless heroes only ever "work" in hyperstylized violent action movies in which their being badass is the main/only source of entertainment. Women work just as well in that role; see: Kill Bill Vol 1. "Perfect" heroes are otherwise reserved for children's stories where character arcs and emotional growth are beyond the grasp of the audience..

 

[The Doctor]

Predictable internet backlash against female character being as generally awesome as male characters: check.

Oh you're one of those people.

My two favourite movies of this decade are probably Mad Max and Pacific Rim, whose main characters are women who aren't Mary Sues.

And I'm sure you also totally have some black friends.

As Sagan has pointed out again, and again, and again, your continual use of this term and your earlier reference to SJW pretty much tell the tale of your bias and your clear lack of interest in actually discussing the movie.

 

[BillJ]

I wonder if the complaints are about her abilities or the fact that she's an icky girl?

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Honestly, she's not greater at what she does than James Bond, Batman, or Wolverine, so I'm hard-pressed not to think that's a factor (particular with the use of the term Mary Sue, which gets used far more often than any male equivalents).

 

[BillJ]

I keep seeing people go on about how she beat Kylo Ren. Well, he was injured. But not only that, he just wasn't a very imposing bad guy. He had problems with his temper, he was praying to a burnt hate from his grandpa about his commitment to the Dark Side.

He seemed to have lapses in focus that could easily lead to him getting bested in the right situation.

 

[DWF]

Honestly, she's not greater at what she does than James Bond, Batman, or Wolverine, so I'm hard-pressed not to think that's a factor (particular with the use of the term Mary Sue, which gets used far more often than any male equivalents).

Batman, James Bond and Wolverine all had years of training though. Rey was surprised by her own abilities.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Not her combat skills. Those were shown from the beginning.

 

[Makarov]

I keep seeing people go on about how she beat Kylo Ren. Well, he was injured. But not only that, he just wasn't a very imposing bad guy. He had problems with his temper, he was praying to a burnt hate from his grandpa about his commitment to the Dark Side.

He seemed to have lapses in focus that could easily lead to him getting bested in the right situation.

If that's the case, then there is no reason they needed her to have every single force ability in that fight to beat him. Instead they go out of their way to show that she has every single jedi trick and "zens out" during a strength struggle to beat him.

And this discussion is going to go nowhere fast as along as it's a male vs. female thing. This is more about perfect character vs. flawed characters. Batman and Wolverine are superheroes and very flawed, Batman needs help all the time and so does Wolverine, granted that the movie version of Wolverine is a bit of a gary sue. Still as super heroes they should be compared to wonder woman or super girl.

I'm so damn thankful for how they treated this. If in order to avoid all these super-annoying tropes (and they're really fucking annoying) they had to bring her a little closer to Mary Sue territory... I really don't give a shit.

See I don't think they needed to make her ultra perfect in order to avoid those things. Would it have killed them for her to lose an arm or get a cool scar in that final battle? Or just hold off on some of the force tricks but still win. It just comes too easily, which would be a complaint if it was a male character too.

 

[Set Harth]

Personally I didn't think she was flawed very much if at all. Yeah she got knocked out and captured but only so they could show she could completely resist mind probe, do jedi tricks and escape single handedly.

Leia also displayed considerable resistance to the mind probe, and with zero training or knowledge of her Force potential. So there is precedent.

 

[Finn]

Man. It's gonna be weird from now on. It doesn't matter how I signed on 9 1/2 years before TFA came out. There will be someone who will think I'm a fan of the Abramstarwarsverse.



Anyway. I want to know who was the woman (I think) holding the young Rey's hand when she watched her supposedly parents fly away. At least, Obi-Wan left Luke with step-relatives.

 

[BillJ]

Personally I didn't think she was flawed very much if at all. Yeah she got knocked out and captured but only so they could show she could completely resist mind probe, do jedi tricks and escape single handedly.

Leia also displayed considerable resistance to the mind probe, and with zero training or knowledge of her Force potential. So there is precedent.

My wife pointed out that Skywalker women seem to be less whiny than the men when it comes to how they embrace the Force.

Leia also displayed considerable resistance to the mind probe, and with zero training or knowledge of her Force potential. So there is precedent.

You're not allowed to use past precedence to excuse a current creative choice!

 

[Ithekro]

And pulling a Lightsaber to you seems to be something you can just do. Luke had no training in that yet just did it in Empire once he focused. Younglings in the Clone Wars can do that. It is a simple trick it would seem. It is also possible that she used Ren's pull to help her as she redirected it to herself after he got it moving. Thus he did the hard part and she just changed its course of flight and left it continue to her hand.

The mind trick would seem to need some skill, or persistence in this case. Stormtroopers are not exactly known to have strong minds.

Resistance to the mind probe is something Leia could do and Vader never even guessed she had the Force.

Focus in the Force...Being calm and centered is suppose to allow the Force to flow through you, guide your action while also obeying your commands. That was one of Kenobi's first lessons to Luke, who hadn't heard of the Force. Rey at least had heard of it. And if the legendary smuggler (and overall cynical person) Han Solo says with all seriousness that the Force is real...would you believe?