Rey in The Force Awakens (Possible Spoilers)

[Arrrrgggh]

If it hasn't quite dawned on you, my point is

... basically wrong.

Not at all. It just doesn't make me shallow, thinking women are only interested in watching movies with women in the lead. That's your stance, not mine.

I'm pretty sure every movie I listed is liked by either and/or both women and children despite the lack of either and/or both in the lead roles. Funny how that works if your opinion had any merit whatsoever.

 

[Arrrrgggh]

You're drawing that conclusion because on this site people won't put up with sexist bullshit?

No, I'm drawing on it because a troll came into the thread to call me a name, followed by others telling me that I'm not a real person let alone a new poster. That's where I'm drawing the conclusion from.

The victim complex ("I'm not welcome here. ") evident in the post doesn't make things better.

Show me where I was welcome in this thread just for stating an opinion and asking a question.

Sexists/Racists always complain about how "evil" political correctness (read: the concept that people should be treated equally and with respect) is keeping them from freely voicing their sexist/racist nonsense. So, since you're neither a sexist nor a racist I suppose you don't really want to play that card, right?

That's funny since nothing in my post was sexist. That would be the other person who thinks women only like shows when women are in the lead.

Calling a sexist post sexist isn't an insult.

Yes. It is. The fact that you don't realize that doesn't relate to me in any way.

There is no PC inquisition even though plenty of people seem to expect it.

Funny, then what do you call every post you've made since my first one in this thread? "You're a sexist!" "You're a fake user!" "You're paranoid!"

As an aside, if I'm a sexist, it's funny how I'm totally for a female Doctor in Doctor Who. (If you actually knew what I've been posting, you'd of course already know that. But apparently I and all of my posts are sexist according to you.)

 

[dahj]

Funny how that works if your opinion had any merit whatsoever.

Not so much opinion as fact.
Either that, or it's a mighty giant coincidence how as more care was put into female roles in SF/Fantasy media over the past 20 years the ratio of women interested in such media has skyrocketed...

I would elaborate further why you are completely wrong, but I very much doubt you'd bother to try to understand and I don't much care for your antagonistic tone.

 

[Turtletrekker]

You're entitled to your opinion, just as others are entitled to theirs. The thing about free speech is that it works both ways. You're free to express your opinion, but once it's out there, others are free to express their opinion about your opinion.

BTW, am I the one you refer to as "a troll"?

 

[BigJake]

As an aside, if I'm a sexist, it's funny how I'm totally for a female Doctor in Doctor Who.

Yes, being for a female Doctor in Doctor Who means no other argument you make can ever be sexist. Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

 

[{ Emilia }]

I've always been interested in SciFi but it's really refreshing to see a fully-fledged character like Rey in Star Wars and not just a female archetype. It's great!

I don't think the Force cares about gender so it's a bit silly to complain about a woman being the protagonist.
I mean, I remember we've had somebody claim that men are more drawn to jobs like Ghostbuster, which already was quite bizarre, but the Force is just the Force. We were bound to get a female protagonist at some point, right?

Chances are 50:50. "Jedi Knight" isn't a job people are being drawn to by their hormones.

 

[Chilli]

Calling a sexist post sexist isn't an insult.

Yes. It is. The fact that you don't realize that doesn't relate to me in any way.

Why can't people with such views (for which I will pointedly not use an adjective, but do I have to) ever just own it?

Merriam-Webster defines sexism as "prejudice or discrimination based on sex". You were just openly talking about how men and women are inherently, by nature, better suited for certain jobs (like Jedi Knights, lulz). Not due to societal factors (that would not apply a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away), but by default. I.e. you're openly advocating a preconceived opinion - i.e. a prejudice. It does not matter if you consider this prejudice fact-based and justified - it's still an a priori judgement, and thus a textbook example of, well, prejudice.

Go ahead and advocate such views if you for some reason feel the pressing need to do so, but to lose your shit because somebody uses the technically accurate label for the ideology you're advocating is kinda sad. It to me implies that you, deep down, kinda know these are some icky views to advocate. If it was any other way, why would you mind? If you really consider yourself an agent of "realism", why don't you just say "I don't believe in the equality of the genders, and if that makes me a sexist, I'm a sexist."? I don't get my knickers in a twist when somebody calls me a social democrat or even socialist, because I ( a ) actually feel like that's a technically accurate of my world view ( b ) don't on any level believe there's *anything wrong* with the ideology I usually semi-adhere to.

(And just in general, I find it hilarious how some people's imaginations have no problem with a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, droids, Wookies, Star Destroyers, Ewoks, etc., but a female character with some agency? That's the breaking point. I am also amused by how we're discussing if there "is a market" for characters like Rey, when the movie she's the protagonist of - billing displacement be damned - is nicely on its way of becoming the highest-grossing film in the history of everything ever. Really, dude?)

 

[BigJake]

For Arrrrrgggh's benefit, let me just riff a bit on something Chilli says here:

Calling a sexist post sexist isn't an insult.

Yes. It is. The fact that you don't realize that doesn't relate to me in any way.

Why can't people with such views (for which I will pointedly not use an adjective, but do I have to) ever just own it?

So, on "owning it." One funny thing here is that an argument is not an identity. Having posted a sexist comment doesn't in itself make someone A Sexist in some essential way, it's only long-term patterns of behaviour that can do that. But often people who get called out for a sexist post react as if their entire worldview and selfhood is being called into question -- which is certainly something of an own-goal if they don't want to be defined by one post or one stray argument.

It's also worth remembering that for the longest time, when sexism was just a background assumption of discourse about society, there was really no word for it. It only acquired an epithet when people began analyzing its claims and realized they were irrational and rarely stood up to scrutiny. The same thing was racism; there was no word for it when everybody just assumed that superior and inferior "races" were actually a thing, that assumption only acquired a name when its intellectual reputation went in the toilet.

IOW these were habits of thinking that were only excusable, to whatever extent they ever were, when they were workaday "realism." The ability to name them to some extent shames them, which of course is why racists and sexists so often freak out on being called out for such beliefs. They want more than just the ability to hold and defend such beliefs, they also want to be accepted as good, decent people with Normal Opinions while doing so. In fact, establishing oneself as part of a baseline Norm (instead of part of a shrinking salient of dead-end bigotry) is frequently the whole point of holding and advancing bigoted attitudes and arguments, and I expect that being named and identified frightens that sort of person most of all.

To what extent does all this apply to you? I don't know, but a great way to reinforce the impression that you're basically engaged in what I'm describing above is to carry on with the over-the-top, whiny defensiveness.

 

[Arrrrgggh]

Why can't people with such views (for which I will pointedly not use an adjective, but do I have to) ever just own it?

I don't know. I personally couldn't say because I'm not one.

Merriam-Webster defines sexism as "prejudice or discrimination based on sex". You were just openly talking about how men and women are inherently, by nature, better suited for certain jobs (like Jedi Knights, lulz).

Actually, I pointed out that males tend to be better suited to certain jobs than women, and that women tend to be better suited to other jobs than men. Hell, the US military (Marines I think) just did a study/test on it and found that women -- even their best and brightest -- weren't able to keep up with men in their intended roles. There's nothing sexist (ie, prejudiced or discriminating) about that: It was just a simple fact that the test showed. Other tests have shown that women are better at throwing than men, and another that showed women are safer drivers than men even in professional fields like taxi and bus driving.

There may be the occasional outlier, but that's exactly what they are: A statistical outlier.

Accepting that as reality, rather than trying to live in denial, hardly makes someone a sexist. If I said "women shouldn't be allowed to be in the military!" that would be sexist. If I said "men should be mocked for being nurses!" that would be sexist. Saying "men are better at some things, and women are better at other things" isn't sexist -- it's just reality.

You people are acting like I said Rey is the worst character ever and that she should die in a fire for daring to be the lead in the movie. See my next quote for absolute proof that this is what you're thinking. As opposed to questioning why someone thinks that women only like movies that have women in the lead, as every single post I've mentioned on the subject has shown/questioned.

Relevant Quote:

I am also amused by how we're discussing if there "is a market" for characters like Rey, when the movie she's the protagonist of - billing displacement be damned - is nicely on its way of becoming the highest-grossing film in the history of everything ever. Really, dude?)

Translation: You're reading what you want to read so that you can have something to rage about, not what's actually being written.

And I'm really getting tired of being attacked about this.

BTW, am I the one you refer to as "a troll"?

Nope, it was to the other person who's apparently a moderator or whatever. Who, you know, came out of the woodwork to interrupt the conversation by calling me a sexist and then spent their next five or six posts doing the same thing repeatedly without contributing anything worthwhile to the thread in the process.

 

[{ Emilia }]

What does any of what you just said have to do with being a Jedi?

I'm just wondering. Do you think midi-chlorians are produced in testicles so that only men can use the Force?

You do realize this is the Rey thread, right?

I'm not even going to bother discussing the whole thing with you, because I assume that'd be pointless, but it seriously makes no sense in a thread about a female Jedi.

 

[BigJake]

As opposed to questioning why someone thinks that women only like movies that have women in the lead

Zero people have said this, it is your strawman.

Belabouring that there are more men than women in the world's militaries -- as if these are bastions of sexism-neutral decision-making we're talking about here that can be taken as reflecting some form of completely non-sexist descriptive reality -- as if it has the slightest relevance to whether Rey's character represents "forced equality" is a giveaway of half-baked reasoning that's prepared to accept sexism as unchallenged background fact and demand that everyone else do the same. It's a stupid argument and it's a sexist one, and you'd better get used to being "attacked" about silliness like that as long as you continue to engage in it.

 

[Arrrrgggh]

Really? Now you can't even keep up with a conversation that's only been active for an hour or two? Here's where it started, and where you came in trolling:

Link.

I'm just wondering. Do you think midi-chlorians are produced in testicles so that only men can use the Force?

And thanks for proving my point about reading what you want to read, and not what's actually being written.

 

[Arrrrgggh]

As opposed to questioning why someone thinks that women only like movies that have women in the lead

Zero people have said this, it is your strawman.

Wrong.

Same link.

 

[Kemaiku]

Didn't read the whole thread, but has anyone mentioned Rey's "success" with the lightsaber might be tied to her skill with a staff? Not the same weapon, but some technique might translate.

The ability to use a staff and a sword are not interchangable, people who specialise in one tend to have great difficulty with another.

Also, lightsabres have no weight so using one would be far more difficult to judge than a normal sword.

So...plot convenience.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Again: Rey didn't choose to join a military. The Force is strong in her, that can happen to anybody. It's not related to gender so this whole conversation is nonsensical in this particular thread.

Regarding the military Jake is right. We don't know what job decision-making would be like in a non-sexist society so we can't really know what it's like in the Star Wars Galaxy.
Still, though: Not relevant to Jedi Knights anyway.

 

[BigJake]

Really? Now you can't even keep up with a conversation that's only been active for an hour or two? Here's where it started, and where you came in trolling:

Link.

That post doesn't say that "women only like movies that have a woman in the lead." It said "those shows were not enjoyed by women as much" because of the lack of female characters. This is a different claim from the one you are claiming to critique. Do you not understand the difference?

 

[dahj]

As opposed to questioning why someone thinks that women only like movies that have women in the lead

Zero people have said this, it is your strawman.

Wrong.

Same link.

You lack comprehension if you think what I said in the post you linked equates to what you asserted in the quote in question.

 

[Arrrrgggh]

Whatever, I'm done. Feel free to keep trolling and ignoring what's being said, you apparently have a moderator backing you up. I'm sure you'll sleep better tonight you really showed that mean old sexist a thing or two!

Edit: And apparently I'm a racist now, too, according to the post that showed up at the same time below! But I'm the one with the comprehension problem...

 

[{ Emilia }]

I'm just discussing things here. I'm not using any amazing secret moderator superpowers. Unless "common sense" and the ability to have complex thoughts counts as a superpower. I don't think it's a mod-only power, though.

Really? Now you can't even keep up with a conversation that's only been active for an hour or two? Here's where it started, and where you came in trolling:

Link.

That post doesn't say that "women only like movies that have a woman in the lead." It said "those shows were not enjoyed by women as much" because of the lack of female characters. This is a different claim from the one you are claiming to critique. Do you not understand the difference?

"Everbody should just be able to identify with white male protagonists!" is a pretty lazy, very old excuse to deny women and minorities any kind of meaningful presence and representation in mainstream media.

 

[BigJake]

Whatever, I'm done.

So you do not understand the difference, then.

That's too bad, it's not very complicated. Maybe next time you should try thinking your posts through first.

"Everbody should just be able to identify with white male protagonists!" is a pretty lazy, very old excuse to deny women and minorities any kind of meaningful presence and representation in mainstream media.

Quite, of course. Anyone who wants actual diveristy is the "real" racist/sexist.