Rey and the sad devolution of the female character

[Awesome Possum]

Wow...

That's sarcasm, I find this whole Rey is a Mary Sue shit to be a comical farce. One that more than a few people seem to take very seriously for reasons beyond me, but likely also laughable. 99% of it seems to come from people not even paying attention to the movie. But I guess it's just hard for some.

 

[Trekkin]

I'm FEMALE so this isn't some sexist thing,

Oh honey. That’s not how it works.

I’m also board-obliged to say:

That's sarcasm, I find this whole Rey is a Mary Sue shit to be a comical farce. One that more than a few people seem to take very seriously for reasons beyond me, but likely also laughable. 99% of it seems to come from people not even paying attention to the movie. But I guess it's just hard for some.

The term ‘Mary Sue’ itself is a farce. It became one the second it slipped beyond its very specific use as an in-joke within the Trek fandom.

Aside from having no set meaning outside of being female-centric (resulting in it being a catch-all for ‘critics’ to dismiss a female character for basically any reason,) it’s just lazy. You need to do better than ‘this character is an archetype’ to describe why that’s bad.

And just saying ‘it’s an archetype!’ in Star Wars, is basically digging a hole, throwing yourself in, then pulling the dirt down on top of you.

 

[USS Firefly]

Rey however can basically do everything and is superior to everyone.

I have the same feeling, but we can't criticize Rey because then it's sexism

 

[Refuge]

I have the same feeling, but we can't criticize Rey because then it's sexism

I hear you.

 

[Trekkin]

I have the same feeling, but we can't criticize Rey because then it's sexism

I’ve been called racist for referring to a certain manga as spank material for pedophiles.

Also once - rightfully this time - got called a dumbass ignoramous way back when, after I tried to defend casting the whitest white guy that ever whited as a Chinese mythological figure called ‘Goku.’

(No doubt there was much more stupidity like that last one. I was a teenage, working class, closeted, white girl on the internet. Terribly bad takes were basically a guarantee.)

It was Groupthink! Censorship! Truly, people on the internet implying/saying I’m an -ist is the greatest mistreatment of all!

 

[Kibbin]

If people do want to compare Luke and Rey I can point to one thing I don't think I have seen mentioned but what about how they emotionally deal with them getting powers. Luke comes off as being fascinated by the force and having a sense of wonder about it. He wants to learn more. He is wanting to seek out adventure from the first moment we see him by wanting to go join the Academy.
Rey on the otherhand it comes off like it's all a burden. She doesn't even have a Aunt and Uncle for family. She is more of a disinterested loner who is pulled along by the plot into one action set piece after another. She does bond some with Solo and FInn but she still feels like a loner in how she carries herself where as Luke is a open book with his emotions to a point of being naive.

Is that one of the problems, now that I read this, that Luke was more Protagonist and Rey is more main character? Luke was the one pushing, certainly, the first move forward. Okay so it was only when his aunt and uncle were bbq-d that he did so but after that he wants to g to Alderan, he wants to save the princess, he wants to help the rebels take down the death star. Rey has to avoid tie fighter fire and so boards the Falcon. She ditches the group after their first stop. Regroups with them as a lift off the planet. She does stuff along the way before someone brings up the lightsabre fight or the giant space squid but she is more swept away by the plot and carried to the next scene while Luke is helping drive it forward.

 

[Infern0]

I have the same feeling, but we can't criticize Rey because then it's sexism

Don't worry ill do it for you. I'm super not ok with shutting men's opinions down using that card, it's actually sexist to ourselves like we can't hang in a discussion!

 

[Tuskin38]

Why the do people keep ignoring the fact that Kylo was seriously injured?

 

[Infern0]

Oh honey. That’s not how it works.

Actually it is.

I take issue with ANYONE having their opinion shot down.

We have come a long way to get where we are now and in times gone by women's opinions were shot down "who asked the woman?" Etc.

So now we turn around and do the same thing to men? That's not progressive.

Now if it's a genuine sexist remark then yes it ought to be dealt with, but if it's a genuine opinion of a character in a movie? Fair game.

It may be that in my professional life as a trauma therapist I encounter just as many victimized men as women that I have a lot of empathy for them, but nobody's opinion is invalid.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

We have come a long way to get where we are now and in times gone by women's opinions were shot down "who asked the woman?" Etc.

So now we turn around and do the same thing to men? That's not progressive.

Say what? No one is shooting down men's opinions, simply because they are coming from men. It's utterly ridiculous to frame this discussion as men's issues vs women's issues, as if the norm is for men to hold one set of opinions on one side of the argument and women to hold the other. That's pure poppycock.

 

[mos6507]

I’ve been called racist for referring to a certain manga as spank material for pedophiles.

Hurts to be the object of name-calling, doesn't it? Maybe think twice before dishing it out next time?

The fact is that all of the anti-new-trilogy arguments have been articulated well enough, like the 58:09 long Last Jedi dissection by Plinkett. There's really no reason to fall all the way back to demanding that critics prove that Rey is a Mary Sue (in the colloquial sense) unless you simply are unwilling to sit down and absorb all of the thorough critiques that have done just that...again and again and again. And since the internet is, at its heart, A.D.D., that unwillingness to listen and process dissent is a huge factor in all this. It's far easier to reach for the ad hominem, which as you can attest to, cuts BOTH WAYS.

But don’t let me disrupt your...dumpster fire in progress. Now there’s a poor, tortured, Frankenstein’s monster of a phrase.

If you sincerely don't like dumpster fires, don't throw fuel onto them.

 

[Trekkin]

Actually it is.

Women can well-and-truly be sexist.
To men, to each other, about themselves...
That’s not even vaguely controversial.

I don’t actually know if you’re sexist, and my investment in delving further into that is...decidedly minimal. But refusing to recognise that internalised misogyny even exists, doesn’t exactly lead me to think your denial should be taken at face value either. You don’t drive through a traffic light, just because a blind man tells you that the light is green.

As to ‘taking issue opinions being shot down,’ then your shit out of luck. Your entitled to share (most of) your opinions. Not to have anyone just accept them uncritically.

Anyway, I thought you weren’t a man? If you’re getting ‘shot down,’ it’s obviously not about ‘men’s opinions.’

Hurts to be the object of name-calling, doesn't it? .

Not particularly. That’s kinda the entire point.

Much more embarrassed that in the second case, they were 100% right. But we live and learn. Some of us, anyway.

Also: everyone scratch off ‘the inevitable hiding behind RLM’ in their ‘Star Wars argument’ bingo cards. Whilst I laugh at ‘its long, and that means the argument is good.’

 

[Kemaiku]

Rey however can basically do everything and is superior to everyone.

We must have seen very different movies. Rey barely managed to do the things she did, and was not shown as "superior to everyone", simply learning a little faster from a life time of having to do so to stay alive. Not coming from the privilaged background of the others, where they didn't fight for their lives everyday after being abandoned by drunk parents.

 

[Amaris]

We must have seen very different movies. Rey barely managed to do the things she did, and was not shown as "superior to everyone", simply learning a little faster from a life time of having to do so to stay alive. Not coming from the privilaged background of the others, where they didn't fight for their lives everyday after being abandoned by drunk parents.

This. Rey was fighting for her life in every situation, and had grown up on her own, on a planet with a people that killed or exploited everything that got in their way. She had to learn quickly, and live by her wits. You don't have to be skilled at everything to survive, just desperate enough not to die, and willing to change your strategy on the fly. Rey showed a proclivity for fast thinking, while pouring everything she had into staying alive. That wouldn't make her a Mary Sue, it makes her a survivor.

 

[Trekkin]

If you sincerely don't like dumpster fires, don't throw fuel onto them.

Wait...I don’t like garbage fires?

Fucking hell. They literally stop us freezing to death when I’m dragged camping. Also, a really great way to dispose of documents.

 

[fireproof78]

We must have seen very different movies. Rey barely managed to do the things she did, and was not shown as "superior to everyone", simply learning a little faster from a life time of having to do so to stay alive. Not coming from the privilaged background of the others, where they didn't fight for their lives everyday after being abandoned by drunk parents.

Precisely so. She was a survivalist out of necessity, having lived basically on her own and eking out an existence on a desert planet. She is a fast learner because that meant her survival. She grew up with the legends of the Jedi and Luke Skywalker, and dreamed of a different life outside of her bare survival.

The whole "Rey doesn't struggle" seems absurd to me because of her background. Her whole 10 years, give or take, on Jakku is her struggle. She stumbles, struggles, fails, nearly dies, several times across the story as presented, and I'm skeptical that we have seen the end of her battles.

Rey is a survivor. In any other story and context she would be treated with a lot more respect.

It was clear as early as "Heir to the Empire" an "Dark Force Rising" that Endor and the Ewoks survived the explosion of the Second Death Star. Leia went there in the second novel of the series after suggesting a meeting there in the first novel. At that was the first set of novels of the old EU in the 1990s. I seem to recall occasional references to Ewoks by various Alliance heroes who had been there in the aftermath of the battle, like Wedge Antilles.

I'm not questioning their survival, since this is a fantasy kids movie after all, and the teddy bears were not going to face mass extinction. As I said, it is a unfortunate implication of the story and one that hasn't been addressed for many years, while being the subject of fan speculation and essays.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Why the do people keep ignoring the fact that Kylo was seriously injured?

Because it contradicts their narrative. They’re being falsely accused of sexism, that’s the real problem.

They decided that Rey is a terrible character because she’s perfect and can do everything. Watching the movies proves them wrong, but they keep repeating it. Rey is clearly shown being capable of something, which is expanded on later in the same movie. Because that’s how setup works, but they ignore the setup and claim confusion about how she was able to do something. It’s either an epidemic of poor attention spans or deliberate ignorance to justify an opinion. They decided she’s a Mary Sue and nothing, including the movie itself can change their minds. It’s like trying to talk Tom Cruise out of Scientology.

If you don’t like it, just stop watching. Spending time arguing over a movie you don’t like is a waste of a life.

 

[Kemaiku]

Because it contradicts their narrative. They’re being falsely accused of sexism, that’s the real problem.

If you don’t like it, just stop watching. Spending time arguing over a movie you don’t like is a waste of a life.

That and should Kylo become even slightly angry, he starts wildly slinging his lighsaber around in an infantile manner, making his fighting skills go down several levels of affectiveness. So that someone who spent 20 years defending themselves likely from angry men like him had a better chance of getting one or two good swings in.

Seriously, his skills with the Force go out the window easily when someone upsets him at all. Why are we not addressing his constant temper tantrums? cutting up his ship, a forest etc whenever things don't go his way?

 

[Awesome Possum]

I’m not even convinced Kylo was even a decent fighter, other than using the Force. He’s just been the only guy with a lightsaber for years and swung like anyone who buys a replica. It’s just hack and slash. Especially when he’s angry and not focusing. His fight with Rey was him throwing a tantrum with someone who had spent her whole life having to defend herself with a staff. Even then she’s really just blocking him until she gets the upper hand at the end. It’s one of the less impressive fights when it comes to the fight itself. All the impact comes from the emotional aspect and the visual of it being in the snow on a collapsing planet.

 

[Kemaiku]

I’m not even convinced Kylo was even a decent fighter, other than using the Force. He’s just been the only guy with a lightsaber for years and swung like anyone who buys a replica. It’s just hack and slash. Especially when he’s angry and not focusing. His fight with Rey was him throwing a tantrum with someone who had spent her whole life having to defend herself with a staff. Even then she’s really just blocking him until she gets the upper hand at the end. It’s one of the less impressive fights when it comes to the fight itself. All the impact comes from the emotional aspect and the visual of it being in the snow on a collapsing planet.

Exactly, the whole fight is a mess between two people not in their right mind. We could spend all day speculating why the "chosen ones" like Ani and Luke are so emotionally unstable or childish at first but anyway.

Her skills with the saber are based on using a weapon on a daily basis since childhood, but we see in TLJ she doesn't know how to balance something with a different center of gravity and no mass in the blade. Taking the entire top off the rock she meant to not leave a mark on. That improved under Luke until she knew how to shift the balance/weight to use a sword and not a staff, in about the same time it took anyone else we saw pick one up.

Or not, Luke was still swinging wildly in TESB so that you could nearly hear Vadar yawning through most of the "fight" until he took the little idiots hand off and sent him home. He still got himself captured and shot up in ROTJ, returning to blindly slamming is lightsaber around in his final fight of the trilogy, overcoming Vadar mainly because he was too old, too machine and holding back from killing his son.

He never had an actual one on one with another Jedi/Sith that was out to kill him. Until Paply, who was seconds away from frying him alive.