Rey and the sad devolution of the female character

[Refuge]

Actually it is.

I take issue with ANYONE having their opinion shot down.

We have come a long way to get where we are now and in times gone by women's opinions were shot down "who asked the woman?" Etc.

So now we turn around and do the same thing to men? That's not progressive.

Now if it's a genuine sexist remark then yes it ought to be dealt with, but if it's a genuine opinion of a character in a movie? Fair game.

It may be that in my professional life as a trauma therapist I encounter just as many victimized men as women that I have a lot of empathy for them, but nobody's opinion is invalid.

Totally agree. It is quite acceptable for a man not to embrace the characterisation/portrayal of a female character without having something projected on him - like he didn't actually watch the movie, lol. Or he's unwilling to accept a female lead. It is also quite acceptable for a female to not embrace a poorly written female character. It's just a movie and we all have our opinions

 

[fireproof78]

Totally agree. It is quite acceptable for a man not to embrace the characterisation/portrayal of a female character without having something projected on him - like he didn't actually watch the movie, lol. Or he's unwilling to accept a female lead. It is also quite acceptable for a female to not embrace a poorly written female character. It's just a movie and we all have our opinions

The struggle I am running up against is the fact that Luke and Anakin are actually very similar to Rey in many respects, with Rey actually going through more than Luke in her early life. So, the acceptance of Luke and the rejection of Rey is quite strange to me.

 

[Refuge]

The struggle I am running up against is the fact that Luke and Anakin are actually very similar to Rey in many respects, with Rey actually going through more than Luke in her early life. So, the acceptance of Luke and the rejection of Rey is quite strange to me.

Hmmm. Thinking about this. Okay I (personally) watched Star Wars, Empire, and The Return, on TV. Then (don't judge,) I skimmed the prequels. So the die was cast as far as my love for Star Wars is concerned - it was Luke's story. So even though he was a young man and I just a little girl I identified with him. That whole dreamer thing. I feel I know his journey better and I like him to be honest. He was kind of a dork but not inadequate. Mock his pilot skills if one must but it was referenced and he was supposed to be good. The way he came about using the Force seemed more inspirational and less 'scripted'. It was there when he needed it but he had to spend a good part of future movies perfecting it before he could really take on a Vader. With Luke I have never felt totally confident or safe that he might do what is expected. In some ways his death validated the (my) feeling that he was not infallible that he always seemed to court loss and sacrifice.

So fast forward to TFA and it's a wonderful day in grown up Refuge's world. She gets to see Star Wars in a proper theatre! She likes it but she feels Rey is a little less relatable because it all seemed to go too easy for her. It was just a little patronising actually. Whereas I organically just like Luke, I feel I have to intellectually like Rey, but I'm not convinced.

 

[Campe]

Hmmm. Thinking about this. Okay I (personally) watched Star Wars, Empire, and The Return, on TV. Then (don't judge,) I skimmed the prequels. So the die was cast as far as my love for Star Wars is concerned - it was Luke's story. So even though he was a young man and I just a little girl I identified with him. That whole dreamer thing. I feel I know his journey better and I like him to be honest. He was kind of a dork but not inadequate. Mock his pilot skills if one must but it was referenced and he was supposed to be good. The way he came about using the Force seemed more inspirational and less 'scripted'. It was there when he needed it but he had to spend a good part of future movies perfecting it before he could really take on a Vader. With Luke I have never felt totally confident or safe that he might do what is expected. In some ways his death validated the (my) feeling that he was not infallible that he always seemed to court loss and sacrifice.

So fast forward to TFA and it's a wonderful day in grown up Refuge's world. She gets to see Star Wars in a proper theatre! She likes it but she feels Rey is a little less relatable because it all seemed to go too easy for her. It was just a little patronising actually. Whereas I organically just like Luke, I feel I have to intellectually like Rey, but I'm not convinced.

But it’s not JUST Luke’s story. It is the story of the Rise, Fall, Redemption and Legacy of Anakin Skywalker. Luke is a major player in it appearing in six out of the nine episodes but the focus is not on him alone. I don’t disagree that you can take each trilogy or even each film individually but it is all part of a larger story that weaves together.

To that end, in a sense, one could consider the sequel trilogy to be Ben Solo’s story. And while I don’t have a problem with Rey’s story, her being the protagonist or her being able to do the things she can and not be a Mary Sue (although I respect that people can see that), I think we’re going to have to see how Episode IX plays out to see who the true main character in this trilogy is.

If it’s Rey, it still can be the Legacy portion of what I suggest above. If it’s Ben. Well. Then we’ll certainly have a new perspective on all of this.

 

[Refuge]

But it’s not JUST Luke’s story. It is the story of the Rise, Fall, Redemption and Legacy of Anakin Skywalker. Luke is a major player in it appearing in six out of the nine episodes but the focus is not on him alone. I don’t disagree that you can take each trilogy or even each film individually but it is all part of a larger story that weaves together.

To that end, in a sense, one could consider the sequel trilogy to be Ben Solo’s story. And while I don’t have a problem with Rey’s story, her being the protagonist or her being able to do the things she can and not be a Mary Sue (although I respect that people can see that), I think we’re going to have to see how Episode IX plays out to see who the true main character in this trilogy is.

If it’s Rey, it still can be the Legacy portion of what I suggest above. If it’s Ben. Well. Then we’ll certainly have a new perspective on all of this.

Hey I was just saying what I felt, I took it on as his story.

 

[Campe]

Hey I was just saying what I felt, I took it on as his story.

And as I suggested: you can take each film or trilogy as their own story. You have an affinity for the OT and Luke’s story. I actually share that love. I just find some enjoyment in the ST as well. You don’t. That’s fine by me.

 

[Refuge]

And as I suggested: you can take each film or trilogy as their own story. You have an affinity for the OT and Luke’s story. I actually share that love. I just find some enjoyment in the ST as well. You don’t. That’s fine by me.

That's cool. I know the prequels reset the time and focus of character even though the 'originals' came first but are not supposed to be the starting off point like they seemed at the time. Yeah, I know what I mean.

 

[thribs]

Her character is fine. Just not a particularly interesting one. None of them really are which is one of the issues I have with the Disney trilogy.

 

[fireproof78]

Hmmm. Thinking about this. Okay I (personally) watched Star Wars, Empire, and The Return, on TV. Then (don't judge,) I skimmed the prequels. So the die was cast as far as my love for Star Wars is concerned - it was Luke's story. So even though he was a young man and I just a little girl I identified with him. That whole dreamer thing. I feel I know his journey better and I like him to be honest. He was kind of a dork but not inadequate. Mock his pilot skills if one must but it was referenced and he was supposed to be good. The way he came about using the Force seemed more inspirational and less 'scripted'. It was there when he needed it but he had to spend a good part of future movies perfecting it before he could really take on a Vader. With Luke I have never felt totally confident or safe that he might do what is expected. In some ways his death validated the (my) feeling that he was not infallible that he always seemed to court loss and sacrifice.

So fast forward to TFA and it's a wonderful day in grown up Refuge's world. She gets to see Star Wars in a proper theatre! She likes it but she feels Rey is a little less relatable because it all seemed to go too easy for her. It was just a little patronising actually. Whereas I organically just like Luke, I feel I have to intellectually like Rey, but I'm not convinced.

I can relate to the Luke thing. That's why the PT stood out as so odd to me. It never felt like a part of Luke's story. Just random bits of information not necessary for the story.

I even agree with about Luke and not feeling confident about what he would do. Even with his introduction in ROTJ there was a sense that he might not be completely good. The Force choke and dark uniform were interesting clues to that possibility.

For me, the same exists with Rey. Even Luke says as such. Rey has such raw potential that when she taps in to the Force it is very raw and unfocused and potentially dangerous. As I have argued previously, Rey does not have as easy as often argued for, and her background is often discounted. Speaking as someone who has worked with kids traumatized from the loss of their parents I think that this trauma cannot be overstated. Unlike Luke, Rey is pretty much on her own, a survivor, who is not able to count on anyone until Finn and Han came along. Even then, we see that skepticism in those people. Rey's challenges are as much interpersonal as they are situational. Indeed, she is someone working to rise above her own personal limitations, fears and struggles. In that way she is much more relatable to me as a person and not just a fictional archetype. Though, she does fit the "low born becomes great" archetype very well.

 

[thribs]

I like to think that whole Star Wars saga is Anakin’s story. Not Luke’s

 

[Infern0]

My last point on Rey is this

Everyone knew she was the protagonist for the trilogy going into TFA and I don't remember seeing really any complaints

TFA comes out and most people like it

People are looking forward to TLJ

TLJ comes out and a lot of people don't like it and complain about the characterisation.

The "alt-right" go to ridiculous extremes calling it the worst movie ever, literally no redeeming factors to it, etc

The feminists get up in arms and feel the need to defend it to the hilt. Making Rey's charicterisation beyond criticism in their eyes

Both sides are equally wrong imo

I walked out of TFA really liking it

I walked out of TLJ on premier night before any reviews and thought "that wasn't a good movie"

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The feminists get up in arms and feel the need to defend it to the hilt. Making Rey's charicterisation beyond criticism in their eyes

Aside from the odd individual here and there, that's not what feminists are doing.

 

[Trekkin]

TFA comes out and most people like it

...

TLJ comes out and a lot of people don't like it and complain about the characterisation.

‘Alot of people’ didn’t like TFA, and complained about the characterisation. And the story. And the direction. And...

Box-office and home sales suggest ‘most people’ liked TLJ..

(Yeah. I noticed the goal post move from ‘most people’ to ‘alot of people’ halfway between the comparison. I’d say ‘very clever’, but...it’s not.)

And saying you didn’t see complaints about Rey during the year surrounding TFA is either a highly selective memory at work, or you’ve managed to make a particularly imprenatrable social media bubble.

The feminists get up in arms and feel the need to defend it to the hilt. Making Rey's charicterisation beyond criticism in their eyes"

Feminist Film Theory: Famous for placing subjects above comment.

‘The feminists’ have criticised Rey’s treatment in TLJ. The usual bone of contention is that they think she (along with Rose, Holdo, and Leia to an extent) ended up mostly as supporting characters in men’s journey to becoming heroes (or villains in Kylos case), without being granted the same complexity.

There was also grumbling about implication that Rey is going to redeem Kylo with her vagina. Unsurprisingly.

Not interpretations I agree with, btw. And ones that’ll I think the video above was trying to piggy-back off without actually understanding. Apparently it’s a bit hard to understand arguments when you’re just skimming to co-opt the language.

 

[fireproof78]

I like to think that whole Star Wars saga is Anakin’s story. Not Luke’s

That's what Lucas eventually spun it as.

 

[thribs]

That's what Lucas eventually spun it as.

Does work though. Even in the new Disney canon, more or less.

 

[fireproof78]

Does work though. Even in the new Disney canon, more or less.

It does to a certain degree, but I think ANH stands out the most as not fitting in with that narrative.

 

[Infern0]

‘Alot of people’ didn’t like TFA, and complained about the characterisation. And the story. And the direction. And...

Box-office and home sales suggest ‘most people’ liked TLJ..

(Yeah. I noticed the goal post move from ‘most people’ to ‘alot of people’ halfway between the comparison. I’d say ‘very clever’, but...it’s not.)

And saying you didn’t see complaints about Rey during the year surrounding TFA is either a highly selective memory at work, or you’ve managed to make a particularly imprenatrable social media bubble.



Feminist Film Theory: Famous for placing subjects above comment.

‘The feminists’ have criticised Rey’s treatment in TLJ. The usual bone of contention is that they think she (along with Rose, Holdo, and Leia to an extent) ended up mostly as supporting characters in men’s journey to becoming heroes (or villains in Kylos case), without being granted the same complexity.

There was also grumbling about implication that Rey is going to redeem Kylo with her vagina. Unsurprisingly.

Not interpretations I agree with, btw. And ones that’ll I think the video above was trying to piggy-back off without actually understanding. Apparently it’s a bit hard to understand arguments when you’re just skimming to co-opt the language.

Maybe I missed something with TFA but I didn't see nearly as much complaint as I did with TLJ

On RT TFA has 87% audience score, TLJ has 45%

As for the further feminist arguments im talking about your average social media feminists not advanced feminist scholarly theorists.

 

[fireproof78]

Maybe I missed something with TFA but I didn't see nearly as much complaint as I did with TLJ

TFA's complaints were drowned out by the excitement of a new Star Wars. But, I saw plenty among the film forums I frequented at the time.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Rey was sold for drugs, by her loser parents, to... Seriously was she sold into slavery, or left as collateral to fill up their speeder tank, and then the Frakk Clerk holding this three year old got bored of waiting for the spacemethhead kenobis to come back and to pay their bills, and kicked the kid to the curb.

So Rey's evil boyfriend is named after gampy?

What a bitter pill.

In the novels, Leia "had" a boy named Anikan.

She forgave him in the expanded continuity for the torture, and his part in the destruction of Aalderan in A New Hope?

There is no Anikan Solo in the new movie continuity?

Leia did not forgive Vader in the new movies, for the torture, and destruction of Aalderan in A New Hope?

 

[Trekkin]

You can’t find plenty here. Hell, it pops up in this thread.

As for the further feminist arguments im talking about your average social media feminists not advanced feminist scholarly theorists.

Admittedly not a scholar (little bit too long without making any money for my liking), but I did my legwork for feminist film theory. Modern education being what it is, I’ve got literal receipts.

Also just a rube who shoots the shit on social media. Distinction without difference.

The sudden clapback about people using feminist critique as their lens for Star Wars viewing, always amuses me in the fandom of ‘George Lucas intended...’