Revisiting ST-TNG...

[RAMA]

“Genesis” ***

An inadvertent virus begins to devolve the crew.

Your first reaction is not surprisingly One of the things that's always been funny in sci-fi is how fast viruses and disease-of-the-weeks work...as well as how fast the antidotes and cures put everyone back to normal. In Trek we saw this as far back as "Miri" and "The Deadly Years." And it's no different here as the 1701D's crew devolves into dramatically different lifeforms within days yet Data's antidote reverses the effect in minutes.

The first eight minutes of this story are pretty much pointless and stupid until things start to get going. I had to try setting aside how ridiculous I thought this idea was and just focus on how the story is told. In that context it's watchable and with some decently creepy moments. Otherwise it wouldn't have rated even an inoffensive 3.

Thine Own Self: Really enjoyed this episode..some nice production design and an accidental PD conflict. Loved the scenes where the natives get the "science" wrong. ****1/2 stars

Genesis is an episode you either love or hate. I don't deny the science is tenuous, but one could say the same thing about a lot of STNG and TOS episodes before it. If you can hold your disbelief long enough to pay attention to a fairly self consistent self-referential science then you can kind of go along with the episode and have fun with it, which is what I did. I also noticed IMDB's rating on this episode was quite high, in conflict with the general view on this BB. ****1/2 stars

Emergence: I was incredulous when I first saw this episode, nifty idea about the ship becoming sentient, but the silly events followed by one of the most pointless endings in ST history make this one almost unwatchable. **

Bloodlines: Unneeded sequel. Poor casting. Poor story. **1/2

Masks: One of the the truly great ST episodes in history. Wonderful concept, photographed well, good musical score, excellent FX, acted magnificently. *****

Preemptive Strike: Another excellent late 7th season episode, contrary to the current zeitgeist of the thread. A strong political issue that was carried over as the basis of another series. Ro Laren is a great character, and it's hard to not feel sympathy for her plight as well as the colonists. ****1/2

“Masks” *

An alien artifact possesses Data and begins to transform the Enterprise.

How nice that an alien technology is still functional after 87 million years and is compatible enough to overtake the Enterprise's systems. And this same alien tech was built by a society that seemed ridiculously primitive?

On top of a bunch of unaddressed questions I found this to be excruciatingly boring. The first two minutes alone made me want to run my head against the wall. And it was definately a WTF! moment seeing Data and Picard wearing those masks.

And then finally how nice that all Picard had to do was say just the right thing for this artifact to go to sleep and change everything back to normal. Of course it never occurred to him to put some distance between the ship and this thing when things started happening and to turn the sensor beams off when they detected a feedback signal?

Nonsense...within SF there are countless cultures older than this (B5 is full of them), the Guardian of Forever is at least 5 billion years old!!! This is no criticism.

You can refer to the last Masks thread on speculations about the archive and so on...

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=140025&highlight=Masks&page=2

Picard's discussion with Maska was a logical progression based on the established myths in the computer archive, it makes a lot more sense than the Kirk inspired AI lambasting in TOS(one would think advanced AI would be able to counter logical degrees of unsolvability).

RAMA

 

[Warped9]

Well I'm sure I'm just about to get roasted.

"All Good Things" (Parts I & II) ***

Picard finds himself shifting between three different time periods and trying to prevent the destruction of humanity.

I know this is a favoured episode by a lot of TNG fans, but in all honesty I don't really see that there's much to it. To me it seems much like a glorified piece of fanfic. And I never got any sense of real jeopardy from it because we quickly learn that Q is behind the whole thing. And we also know that Picard isn't just shifting in time, but he's shifting across continuities because none of the time periods are consistent with each other. In each period there's only one tachyon pulse. The whole thing comes across as a pile of technobabble nonsense.

That isn't to say there aren't some okay moments in it, there are. For me I liked revisiting how things looked in the earlier years and how the characters as they are now look better in the old uniforms than they did originally. And yet we know that continuity isn't as it really happened. And the future continuity was a lot of teasing glimpses of what could happen but most likely won't, primarily because Picard spilled the beans about what happened. It's those moments that made me grade this as "okay" because otherwise I see this as a pile of convoluted nonsense.

For a series' finale sendoff this was quite overdone and underwhelming.

 

[startrekwatcher]

TNG had a very mediocre final season but it managed to end on a high note. I consider AGT the very best finale of any series either Trek or otherwise. I thought the idea of recreating the ship and looks from the first season and have the crew from three different timelines working together to stop the anomaly to be brilliant. It was nice to have nostalgia looking back and getting a glimpse of one possible future. I liked what the writers came up with in the future for where the crew had ended up. This was Q's finest hour. The final scene was so pitch perfect and touching. Loved the future update of the Ent-D. It also had some really great action.

A perfect 4 star episode.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Well I'm sure I'm just about to get roasted.

"All Good Things" (Parts I & II) ***

Picard finds himself shifting between three different time periods and trying to prevent the destruction of humanity.

I know this is a favoured episode by a lot of TNG fans, but in all honesty I don't really see that there's much to it. To me it seems much like a glorified piece of fanfic. And I never got any sense of real jeopardy from it because we quickly learn that Q is behind the whole thing. And we also know that Picard isn't just shifting in time, but he's shifting across continuities because none of the time periods are consistent with each other. In each period there's only one tachyon pulse. The whole thing comes across as a pile of technobabble nonsense.

That isn't to say there aren't some okay moments in it, there are. For me I liked revisiting how things looked in the earlier years and how the characters as they are now look better in the old uniforms than they did originally. And yet we know that continuity isn't as it really happened. And the future continuity was a lot of teasing glimpses of what could happen but most likely won't, primarily because Picard spilled the beans about what happened. It's those moments that made me grade this as "okay" because otherwise I see this as a pile of convoluted nonsense.

For a series' finale sendoff this was quite overdone and underwhelming.

I agree that it's a bit of a jumbly mess. AGT was never in my top favorite episodes list.

Still, there are some bits of the episode that I really really like, such as Q and Picard on primordial Earth, and the two of them in the courtroom at the end.

I hope for your sake, that revisiting STTNG does not include the movies.

 

[Warped9]

Season 1 episode average = 2.56
Season 2 episode average = 2.95
Season 3 episode average = 3.23
Season 4 episode average = 3.15
Season 5 episode average = 2.96
Season 6 episode average = 2.73
Season 7 episode average = 2.46

Season 7 percentages:
Good to Excellent = 15.3% (4 episodes)
Fair = 34.6% (9 episodes)
Poor to Bad = 50% (13 episodes)

Season 7 ratings:
***** Excellent (11.5%)
“Parallels”
“The Pegasus”
“Lower Decks”

**** Good (3.8%)
“Inheritance”

*** Fair (34.6%)
“Interface”
“Attached”
“Force Of Nature”
“Homeward”
“Genesis”
“Journey’s End”
“Preemptive Strike”
“All Good Things” (Part I)
“All Good Things” (Part II)

** Poor (23.0%)
“Descent” (Part II)
“Dark Page”
“Thine Own Self”
“Eye Of The Beholder”
“Firstborn”
“Bloodlines”

* Bad (26.9%)
“Liaisons”
“Gambit” (Part I)
“Gambit” (Part II)
“Phantasms”
“Sub Rosa”
“Masks”
“Emergence”

***** Equal to Season 2 in the number of excellent episodes and a bit of a surprise after having none the previous season.
1st Season = 0 episodes
2nd Season = 3 episodes (13%)
3rd Season = 5 episodes (19%)
4th Season = 1 episode (3%)
5th Season = 2 episodes (7%)
6th Season = 0 episodes (0%)
7th Season = 3 episodes (11%)

**** A significant drop from previous seasons and even less than Season 1.
1st Season = 4 episodes (16%)
2nd Season = 6 episodes (27%)
3rd Season = 6 episodes (23%)
4th Season = 10 episodes (38%)
5th Season = 7 episodes (26%)
6th Season = 8 episodes (30%)
7th Season = 1 episodes (3%)

*** Generally consistent through much of the series' run.
1st Season = 9 episodes (36%)
2nd Season = 5 episodes (22%)
3rd Season = 8 episodes (30%)
4th Season = 7 episodes (26%)
5th Season = 9 episodes (34%)
6th Season = 9 episodes (34%)
7th Season = 9 episodes (34%)

** A significant step up from the previous season.
1st Season = 9 episodes (36%)
2nd Season = 4 episodes (18%)
3rd Season = 4 episodes (18%)
4th Season = 5 episodes (19%)
5th Season = 4 episodes (15%)
6th Season = 3 episodes (11%)
7th Season = 6 episodes (23%)

* Continuing the trend upward over the last few seasons.
1st Season = 3 episodes (12%)
2nd Season = 4 episodes (18%)
3rd Season = 3 episodes (11%)
4th Season = 3 episodes (11%)
5th Season = 4 episodes (15%)
6th Season = 6 episodes (23.%)
7th Season = 7 episodes (26%)


Here are things put more concisely:

Good to Excellent:Here we see a big drop from Season 6 that really lend to the overall underwhelming feeling over this season.
Season 1 = 16%
Season 2 = 40.9%
Season 3 = 42.3%
Season 4 = 42.3%
Season 5 = 34.6%
Season 6 = 30.7%
Season 7 = 15.3%

Fair: Here we see the overall consistency maintaining over the last few seasons.
Season 1 = 36%
Season 2 = 22.7%
Season 3 = 30.7%
Season 4 = 26.9%
Season 5 = 34.6%
Season 6 = 34.6%
Season 7 = 34.6%

Poor to Bad: Not only continuing the general trend over the past four seasons, but a significant increase over Season 6.
Season 1 = 48%
Season 2 = 36.3%
Season 3 = 26.9%
Season 4 = 30.7%
Season 5 = 30.7%
Season 6 = 34.6%
Season 7 = 50%


Looking at the series overall at this point.

Good to Excellent = 56 episodes (31.4%)
Fair = 56 episodes (31.4%)
Poor to Bad = 69 episodes (38.7%)

In general the series stays roughly in thirds in terms of overall quality, but towards the end it starts to skew more towards the Poor to Bad rating.


Season 7 struck me overall as a show suffering fatigue and generally running out of creative gas. A lot of the episodes felt very paint-by-number and ordinary. The enthusiasm and creative energy mostly just wasn't there anymore. And that's something I was starting to feel a bit in Season 5 and felt more distinctly in Season 6. Season 7 just felt more or less inevitable.


This revisit did challenge my memory. In general I still prefer the earlier seasons in overall feel and that's reaffirmed by most of the episodes I liked being set within the first four seasons. From Season 5 onward it starts to slip increasingly towards disinterest on my part. That said I recalled liking about 20% or so of the series and now I've found I like those plus an additional ten percent of the show.

The third of series that makes up the Fair rated episodes is the big variable. In truth a lot of those episodes I could just as easily dismiss along with all the Poor to Bad episodes, but there are a handful of them I still rather like even with their flaws. That brings up my preferred episodes a few more percentage points.


Preferred Episodes: 70 episodes (39.3%)
"Haven" ***
"Where No One Has Gone Before" ****
"The Last Outpost" ***
"Datalore" ***
"11001001" ****
"Home Soil" ***
"When The Bough Breaks" ***
"Heart Of Glory" ***
"The Arsenal Of Freedom" ***
"Symbiosis" ****
“Skin Of Evil” ***
“Conspiracy” ****
“The Neutral Zone” ***

“Where Silence Has Lease” ****
“Elementary, Dear Data” *****
“The Schizoid Man” ***
“Loud As A Whisper” ***
“Unnatural Selection” ****
“A Matter Of Honor” ****
“The Measure Of A Man” *****
“Contagion” ****
“Pen Pals” ****
“Q Who” *****
“Up The Long Ladder” ****
“The Emissary” ***
“Peak Performance” ***

“The Ensigns Of Command” ****
“The Survivors” ****
“The Enemy” ****
“The Vengeance Factor” ****
“The Defector” ****
“Yesterday’s Enterprise” *****
“The Offspring” *****
“Sins Of The Father” *****
“Captain’s Holiday” ****
“Tin Man” ***
“Sarek” *****
“The Best Of Both Worlds” (Part I) *****

“Best Of Both Worlds” (Part II) *****
“Family” ***
“Reunion” ****
“Future Imperfect” ****
“Devil’s Due” ***
“First Contact” ****
“Galaxy’s Child” ****
“Night Terrors” ****
“Identity Crises” ****
“The Nth Degree” ****
“The Drumhead” ****
“Half A Life” ****
“Redemption” (Part I) ****

Redemption” (Part II) ***
“Darmok” *****
“Ensign Ro” *****
“A Matter Of Time” ****
“The Masterpiece Society” ****
“Ethics” ****
“The First Duty” ****
“I, Borg” ****
“Inner Light” ****
“Time’s Arrow” (Part I) ****

“Time’s Arrow” (Part II) ****
“Relics” ***
“Schisms” ***
“Face Of The Enemy” ****
“Rightful Heir” ****

“Inheritance” ****
“Parallels” *****
“The Pegasus” *****
“Lower Decks” *****

 

[Ubik]

You know, I seem to remember Harve Bennett (or was it Nicholas Meyer?) saying a similar thing after watching the entirety of TOS, in preparation for making Star Trek II: that one third of the show was fantastic, one third was okay, and one third was crap. I agreed with his assessment about TOS, and you know, I suppose it probably makes sense that TNG followed a similar pattern. I tend to think that TNG is a better show overall than TOS, but that's only because of a general increase in basic competence when it comes to production values, acting, and writing that comes naturally over the passage of a couple of decades - there's a professional consistency to much of TNG that I find lacking in, basically, most shows from the 60's. But personal sensibilities of that sort aside, I think the one-third rule probably works equally for both shows.

 

[BillJ]

I tend to think that TNG is a better show overall than TOS, but that's only because of a general increase in basic competence when it comes to production values, acting, and writing that comes naturally over the passage of a couple of decades - there's a professional consistency to much of TNG that I find lacking in, basically, most shows from the 60's.

The 'basic competence' you speak of is exactly the reason TNG comes off as bland as it does. The writing rarely 'hit it out of the park' and the acting rarely had any emotional component to it... especially in later seasons.

The writing of TOS was far more sophisticated than what TNG gave us because they weren't worried about making McTrek. TNG never gave us a The Trouble with Tribbles or an I, Mudd, after season two, because they bought into the buzz about being socially relevant. The show became self-important. Hence, the show never took chances with material outside their comfort zone.

Acting in TOS was far more naturalistic than the TNG formula of 'I complete dialogue *pause* you complete dialogue *pause* I complete dialogue'. Perhaps it's a difference in generations... but I find the acting of the sixties to be vastly superior to what came later.

As in all things... YMMV.

 

[GNDN]

"All Good Things" was a fantastic episode when I watched it spoiler-free when it first aired and I still love it to this day. Definitely the most satisfying effort of S7 for me and a fantastic concept for a series finale. This, for me, is where TNG ended (I don't put much credence in any of the movies)

Like him or not, Q was a powerful, recurring element of the show, and it made perfect sense to bring him back. He who was an afterthought tacked onto "Encounter at Farpoint" did come to define the scope of the series, crystalizing humanity's desire to "better itself" and presenting moral, personal and galactic challenges to Picard, the crew and the Federation. The return to the trial and the Enterprise pre-launch were both fantastic choices, as was the glimpse of a twisted future. Too bad VOY tried to ape some of these aspects for it's own finale.

The feeling of family, of the bonds these characters have formed with each other and the limitless possibilities ahead of them are what make this episode special. The technobabble mystery is fun, if you don't examine it too closely, but that was true of many good TNG outings. The important part was how these characters reacted. I was left at the end of this episode with all the wonder and possibility that I felt at the end of ST IV: TVH. A group of people that I like, having endured a fantastic voyage are together again, ready to face whatever comes next. Then we saw what came next.

"All Good Things" did encapsulate the best of the series in a way the movies never would, and I found it to be a fun story, a nostalgic look back, and an entertaining character piece all at the same time.

 

[BillJ]

I was left at the end of this episode with all the wonder and possibility that I felt at the end of ST IV: TVH. A group of people that I like, having endured a fantastic voyage are together again, ready to face whatever comes next. Then we saw what came next.

Then, unfortunately, we saw what came next.

 

[GNDN]

I was left at the end of this episode with all the wonder and possibility that I felt at the end of ST IV: TVH. A group of people that I like, having endured a fantastic voyage are together again, ready to face whatever comes next. Then we saw what came next.

Then, unfortunately, we saw what came next.

Yeah... *walks quietly to a dark corner... sits alone on the cold ground... softly weeping...

 

[Lord Garth]

Season 1 episode average = 2.56
Season 2 episode average = 2.95
Season 3 episode average = 3.23
Season 4 episode average = 3.15
Season 5 episode average = 2.96
Season 6 episode average = 2.73
Season 7 episode average = 2.46

The details might be different but, going by ratings, the way you ranked the seasons isn't too different from most people's. The only difference would be S2 and S6 would switch places.

 

[BillJ]

Season 1 episode average = 2.56
Season 2 episode average = 2.95
Season 3 episode average = 3.23
Season 4 episode average = 3.15
Season 5 episode average = 2.96
Season 6 episode average = 2.73
Season 7 episode average = 2.46

The details might be different but, going by ratings, the way you ranked the seasons isn't too different from most people's. The only difference would be S2 and S6 would switch places.

I'd place season two over six as well. Much more in the way of well done science fiction in the second season.

 

[RAMA]

You know, I seem to remember Harve Bennett (or was it Nicholas Meyer?) saying a similar thing after watching the entirety of TOS, in preparation for making Star Trek II: that one third of the show was fantastic, one third was okay, and one third was crap. I agreed with his assessment about TOS, and you know, I suppose it probably makes sense that TNG followed a similar pattern. I tend to think that TNG is a better show overall than TOS, but that's only because of a general increase in basic competence when it comes to production values, acting, and writing that comes naturally over the passage of a couple of decades - there's a professional consistency to much of TNG that I find lacking in, basically, most shows from the 60's. But personal sensibilities of that sort aside, I think the one-third rule probably works equally for both shows.

I put the number of 5 star episodes in TOS at 14, with 9 coming in season 1. That's 18%. By comparison, two seasons of STNG alone have 11 each, 48 total. That's 27%. I'll still say confidently that there are more good to excellent episodes in STNG than there are in all of TOS production by a wide margin..120-130 out of 176.

Season 1 episode average = 2.56
Season 2 episode average = 2.95
Season 3 episode average = 3.23
Season 4 episode average = 3.15
Season 5 episode average = 2.96
Season 6 episode average = 2.73
Season 7 episode average = 2.46

The details might be different but, going by ratings, the way you ranked the seasons isn't too different from most people's. The only difference would be S2 and S6 would switch places.

I'd place season two over six as well. Much more in the way of well done science fiction in the second season.

To me season 2 was the worst season, even more than season one, which has a bad reputation. After looking at my ratings I revised season 6 downward to 4th best season, but still light years better than season 2, a product of behind the scenes writing discontent and a writer's strike.

I tend to think that TNG is a better show overall than TOS, but that's only because of a general increase in basic competence when it comes to production values, acting, and writing that comes naturally over the passage of a couple of decades - there's a professional consistency to much of TNG that I find lacking in, basically, most shows from the 60's.

The 'basic competence' you speak of is exactly the reason TNG comes off as bland as it does. The writing rarely 'hit it out of the park' and the acting rarely had any emotional component to it... especially in later seasons.

The writing of TOS was far more sophisticated than what TNG gave us because they weren't worried about making McTrek. TNG never gave us a The Trouble with Tribbles or an I, Mudd, after season two, because they bought into the buzz about being socially relevant. The show became self-important. Hence, the show never took chances with material outside their comfort zone.

Acting in TOS was far more naturalistic than the TNG formula of 'I complete dialogue *pause* you complete dialogue *pause* I complete dialogue'. Perhaps it's a difference in generations... but I find the acting of the sixties to be vastly superior to what came later.

As in all things... YMMV.

Seriously?? You really are watching a different show. The dialogue in the 80s and STNG specifically was way more naturalistic than TOS! Not as much as ENT, which takes place closer to our time, but its not even comparable.

I was left at the end of this episode with all the wonder and possibility that I felt at the end of ST IV: TVH. A group of people that I like, having endured a fantastic voyage are together again, ready to face whatever comes next. Then we saw what came next.

Then, unfortunately, we saw what came next.

Yeah... *walks quietly to a dark corner... sits alone on the cold ground... softly weeping...

Eh I don't know, 3 of the movies fared well at the box office, all 4 made $455 million. Ok so the movies were not as consistent as the tv series, but it was great to see them on the big screen. 2 of the STNG movies are above avg, and none plumbs the depths like the horrific STV.

RAMA

 

[Warped9]

If nothing else I'd like to think that it should put to rest the notion that I'm a hater who can't tolerate anything beyond the original series. Particularly during the first half of the series I had quite a bit of fun revisiting these episodes.

 

[BillJ]

Eh I don't know, 3 of the movies fared well at the box office, all 4 made $455 million. Ok so the movies were not as consistent as the tv series, but it was great to see them on the big screen. 2 of the STNG movies are above avg, and none plumbs the depths like the horrific STV.

RAMA

Obviously, you haven't seen Insurrection or Nemesis.

I've never seen a poster like you. It's almost like you need to feel vindicated in liking something. Like a sports fan that only follows winning teams.

 

[CaptainStoner]

If nothing else I'd like to think that it should put to rest the notion that I'm a hater who can't tolerate anything beyond the original series. Particularly during the first half of the series I had quite a bit of fun revisiting these episodes.

Yeah, but you haven't really given TNG a chance.

 

[Warped9]

If nothing else I'd like to think that it should put to rest the notion that I'm a hater who can't tolerate anything beyond the original series. Particularly during the first half of the series I had quite a bit of fun revisiting these episodes.

Yeah, but you haven't really given TNG a chance.

Excuse me, but this is a ridiculous remark. I watched it initially when it was originally broadcast. I've watched numerous episodes when rerun over the years. And now I've just watched the entire series, every damned episode, pretty much back-to-back over the past three months.

And because I don't accept every single frame of it and bow down to kiss Rick Berman's ass I didn't give the show a chance???

If that's the case then I've just wasted a good portion of the last three months.

 

[RAMA]

Eh I don't know, 3 of the movies fared well at the box office, all 4 made $455 million. Ok so the movies were not as consistent as the tv series, but it was great to see them on the big screen. 2 of the STNG movies are above avg, and none plumbs the depths like the horrific STV.

RAMA

Obviously, you haven't seen Insurrection or Nemesis.

I've never seen a poster like you. It's almost like you need to feel vindicated in liking something. Like a sports fan that only follows winning teams.

I'm a Yankee fan...a team that didn't win a World Series for 18 years during my formative years...ouch.

I do like Nemesis, it ranks 5th on my movie list if you take into account ST09. You can go to the movie forum and see why I don't think it comes anywhere near the poor quality of STV. It doesn't make it even close to my top 15 SF movies of it's decade though..

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

If nothing else I'd like to think that it should put to rest the notion that I'm a hater who can't tolerate anything beyond the original series. Particularly during the first half of the series I had quite a bit of fun revisiting these episodes.

Well in that case you'd acquiesce to changing your sig eh?

STAR TREK: 1964-1979, 1987-1992!

RAMA

 

[Warped9]

If nothing else I'd like to think that it should put to rest the notion that I'm a hater who can't tolerate anything beyond the original series. Particularly during the first half of the series I had quite a bit of fun revisiting these episodes.

Well in that case you'd acquiesce to changing your sig eh?

STAR TREK: 1964-1979, 1987-1992!

RAMA

Well, take a look... Oh, since it's the first four seasons I prefer the cutoff is 1991.

Hmm...isn't that the year TUC was released and GR passed away? If so then that's rather poignant.