Regeneration

[Sandoval]

Even if it weren't classified, chances are Picard hadn't read it. He can't read everything, and in a crisis situation, I can't see him running off to google 'robot space zombies' just in case someones blogged it...

Again, you're becoming confused here and assuming that I think all Starfleet captains should be able to recall hundreds of years of alien encounters from memory.

I don't.

I think the unfathomably powerful computers used by Starfleet, continually accessed by Data who was linked into them, should easily be able to throw up information about similar past events when faced with them further down the line.

Thus when a Starfleet ship is presented with a vessel that is a mishmash of bits that regenerates when damaged, or cybernetic aliens with personal shields that quickly adapt to block your weapons and so on, I don't see how it is unreasonable that these phenomenal computer systems aren't instantly analysing records to see if anything similar has ever happened and find that yes, it happened on Earth and was encountered by the uber-famous, everyone's childhood hero Jonathan Archer and his equally uber-famous, still pride of place in a 24th century museum, Enterprise NX01.

If that information wasn't available for Data to access, then why not? Either it was lost or classified.

We've done the lost bit - the idea that 22nd through 24th century computer storage would be such that what happened in Regeneration would be consigned to a single file in a single location that was then blown up during the Romulan War is beyond laughable.

So if it was indeed classified, why classify it? People are continually claiming it is reasonable that Starfleet would classify the incident without explaining what purpose that would serve.

 

[The_Baroness]

Even if it weren't classified, chances are Picard hadn't read it. He can't read everything, and in a crisis situation, I can't see him running off to google 'robot space zombies' just in case someones blogged it...

Again, you're becoming confused here and assuming that I think all Starfleet captains should be able to recall hundreds of years of alien encounters from memory.

I don't.

I think the unfathomably powerful computers used by Starfleet, continually accessed by Data who was linked into them, should easily be able to throw up information about similar past events when faced with them further down the line.

Thus when a Starfleet ship is presented with a vessel that is a mishmash of bits that regenerates when damaged, or cybernetic aliens with personal shields that quickly adapt to block your weapons and so on, I don't see how it is unreasonable that these phenomenal computer systems aren't instantly analysing records to see if anything similar has ever happened and find that yes, it happened on Earth and was encountered by the uber-famous, everyone's childhood hero Jonathan Archer and his equally uber-famous, still pride of place in a 24th century museum, Enterprise NX01.

If that information wasn't available for Data to access, then why not? Either it was lost or classified.

We've done the lost bit - the idea that 22nd through 24th century computer storage would be such that what happened in Regeneration would be consigned to a single file in a single location that was then blown up during the Romulan War is beyond laughable.

So if it was indeed classified, why classify it? People are continually claiming it is reasonable that Starfleet would classify the incident without explaining what purpose that would serve.

I can't argue with any of that actually. You do have a point.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

So if it was indeed classified, why classify it? People are continually claiming it is reasonable that Starfleet would classify the incident without explaining what purpose that would serve.

1. Section 31 classified it, or "lost" it as far as access by people not in their organization went. Who knows why.

2. A player in the Temporal Cold War from far into the future classified it because it suited them that the humans would be less prepared for the Borg when they encountered them.

 

[JB2005]

Even if it weren't classified, chances are Picard hadn't read it. He can't read everything, and in a crisis situation, I can't see him running off to google 'robot space zombies' just in case someones blogged it...

Again, you're becoming confused here and assuming that I think all Starfleet captains should be able to recall hundreds of years of alien encounters from memory.

I don't.

I think the unfathomably powerful computers used by Starfleet, continually accessed by Data who was linked into them, should easily be able to throw up information about similar past events when faced with them further down the line.

Thus when a Starfleet ship is presented with a vessel that is a mishmash of bits that regenerates when damaged, or cybernetic aliens with personal shields that quickly adapt to block your weapons and so on, I don't see how it is unreasonable that these phenomenal computer systems aren't instantly analysing records to see if anything similar has ever happened and find that yes, it happened on Earth and was encountered by the uber-famous, everyone's childhood hero Jonathan Archer and his equally uber-famous, still pride of place in a 24th century museum, Enterprise NX01.

If that information wasn't available for Data to access, then why not? Either it was lost or classified.

We've done the lost bit - the idea that 22nd through 24th century computer storage would be such that what happened in Regeneration would be consigned to a single file in a single location that was then blown up during the Romulan War is beyond laughable.

So if it was indeed classified, why classify it? People are continually claiming it is reasonable that Starfleet would classify the incident without explaining what purpose that would serve.

Maybe Data missed it? You've been repeatedly shown evidence that Data misses things and you keep ignoring that...

 

[The_Baroness]

Even if it weren't classified, chances are Picard hadn't read it. He can't read everything, and in a crisis situation, I can't see him running off to google 'robot space zombies' just in case someones blogged it...

Again, you're becoming confused here and assuming that I think all Starfleet captains should be able to recall hundreds of years of alien encounters from memory.

I don't.

I think the unfathomably powerful computers used by Starfleet, continually accessed by Data who was linked into them, should easily be able to throw up information about similar past events when faced with them further down the line.

Thus when a Starfleet ship is presented with a vessel that is a mishmash of bits that regenerates when damaged, or cybernetic aliens with personal shields that quickly adapt to block your weapons and so on, I don't see how it is unreasonable that these phenomenal computer systems aren't instantly analysing records to see if anything similar has ever happened and find that yes, it happened on Earth and was encountered by the uber-famous, everyone's childhood hero Jonathan Archer and his equally uber-famous, still pride of place in a 24th century museum, Enterprise NX01.

If that information wasn't available for Data to access, then why not? Either it was lost or classified.

We've done the lost bit - the idea that 22nd through 24th century computer storage would be such that what happened in Regeneration would be consigned to a single file in a single location that was then blown up during the Romulan War is beyond laughable.

So if it was indeed classified, why classify it? People are continually claiming it is reasonable that Starfleet would classify the incident without explaining what purpose that would serve.

Maybe Data missed it? You've been repeatedly shown evidence that Data misses things and you keep ignoring that...

That wouldn't stop the computer from finding it though - if as Sandoval said it searched it's own archives automatically (which it is very likely to do given it's sophistication)

 

[Sandoval]

1. Section 31 classified it, or "lost" it as far as access by people not in their organization went. Who knows why.

That's pretty weak.

For your response to questions over why anyone would classify it to essentially be 'someone classified it and who knows why' isn't an answer.

You might as well just say you can offer no plausible reason why anyone at Starfleet would want to classify the encounter in question.

2. A player in the Temporal Cold War from far into the future classified it because it suited them that the humans would be less prepared for the Borg when they encountered them.

Just getting a bit silly now isn't it?

 

[Sandoval]

Maybe Data missed it? You've been repeatedly shown evidence that Data misses things and you keep ignoring that...

Perhaps Data does occasionally miss minor things, but missing a situation as significant as finding the same cybernetic zombies on Earth and being defeated by the most famous captain and ship in Starfleet history?

You use the 'running off to Google' reference as if that somehow supports your argument, when in fact it does the contrary.

But that's EXACTLY what would be happening whenever an unfamiliar vessel or race is encountered by a Starfleet ship - the records would automatically be checked to see if another Starfleet ship had encountered them before and that information, had it not been mysteriously classified for reasons yet to be explained to me, used to help with the current situation.

You think that a starship's sensor readings would not be scrutinised for patterns or familiarity virtually instantaneously by the uber-computers in use by Starfleet? You think that when a new lifeform is encountered these computers don't automatically check to see if anything similar has been encountered by Starfleet or the Federation?

Pull the other one.

 

[Unicron]

I suppose I'm in a relative minority, but I've always counted "Regeneration" as one of my least favorite eps. The Borg weren't particularly scary or effective; they were too slow to adapt to an enemy that several centuries behind the Federation that existed in TNG, which had its own issues fighting the Borg, and Phlox got a dose of the magic alien immunity that was common in ENT. Ultimately they just wanted to recycle something we'd already seen, and they thought not using the name Borg in dialogue would be enough to make the story seem original. I'd have to disagree there, but that's just me.

 

[Sandoval]

Ultimately they just wanted to recycle something we'd already seen, and they thought not using the name Borg in dialogue would be enough to make the story seem original. I'd have to disagree there, but that's just me.

Doctor's Orders is still far and away the worst and most blatant recycling that I've ever seen.

I'm genuinely amazed that they actually did that.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

1. Section 31 classified it, or "lost" it as far as access by people not in their organization went. Who knows why.

That's pretty weak.

For your response to questions over why anyone would classify it to essentially be 'someone classified it and who knows why' isn't an answer.

You might as well just say you can offer no plausible reason why anyone at Starfleet would want to classify the encounter in question.

2. A player in the Temporal Cold War from far into the future classified it because it suited them that the humans would be less prepared for the Borg when they encountered them.

Just getting a bit silly now isn't it?

No, makes plenty of sense given what we know about the war of time manipulation raging in the heavens..

 

[Tiberius]

Nothing it that essay explains what advantage there would be to classifying such an event.

I thought it was common sense.

Or do you really think Starfleet would encounter a force that could assimilate people, had personal force fields, could adapt easily to weapons fire, could upgrade the systems of any ship they get a hold of and are pretty much unstoppable and then decide, "Oh, I don't see any problem in making this information freely available!"

As far as not telling captains but letting admirals know, since captains are the ones out 'boldly going where no man has gone before' and thus several orders of magnitude more likely to encounter such threads than an overweight admiral stuffed behind desk in San Francisco, I'm puzzled why you need me to explain why captains should be made aware of such significant events even if Starfleet has chosen, inexplicably, to classify them from the majority of officers and crewmen.

Because you seem to think that Captains are the ones making the decisions. The admirals are the ones deciding, "Let's send the Enterprise over here, and Potemkin over there."

But again, why classify it? What does Starfleet gain by not allowing its people access to the information that it loses by letting them know?

It gains keeping information about a big threat out of the hands of its enemies.

If starfleet knew about some force that could possibly do a lot of damage to them and then made that knowledge freely available, how long would it be before the Romulans, or the Breen or the Cardassians got a hold of it? And then those races would try to use it to their advantage, giving the Federation even more problems.

 

[Tiberius]

On the other hand, we have a single isolated research team consisting of maybe half a dozen people who disappeared somewhere out in the middle of nowhere and who were then stopped by a single vessel.

And the crew of the alien transport ship they attacked, the crew of which they assimilated.

And how likely do you think it is that those guys homeworld ever learned the full story about what happened?

 

[The_Baroness]

If starfleet knew about some force that could possibly do a lot of damage to them and then made that knowledge freely available, how long would it be before the Romulans, or the Breen or the Cardassians got a hold of it? And then those races would try to use it to their advantage, giving the Federation even more problems.

but it wouldn't BE freely available. It would be available to officers with the required clearance. There would be little point in classifying it from captains, as they would always face the chance of running into the Borg.

And as 200 years pass without incident, chances are it would be declassified

 

[The_Baroness]

Ultimately they just wanted to recycle something we'd already seen, and they thought not using the name Borg in dialogue would be enough to make the story seem original. I'd have to disagree there, but that's just me.

Doctor's Orders is still far and away the worst and most blatant recycling that I've ever seen.

I'm genuinely amazed that they actually did that.

Not Carpenter Street then?

"ooo, lets send the crew back to present day earth! never done that before....except for in Tomorrow is Yesterday...and oh yeah...Assignment Earth...oh..and...the Voyage Home...oh..and then there was futures end!"

Ok...but we've never done it with ARCHER before!!! yay!

 

[JB2005]

Doctors Orders is the worst Prime Directive Episode...

Which still has to be followed even:

a) when there is no prime directive
b) when it is one of those situations when violating it is the only moral action

 

[F. King Daniel]

Ultimately they just wanted to recycle something we'd already seen, and they thought not using the name Borg in dialogue would be enough to make the story seem original. I'd have to disagree there, but that's just me.

Doctor's Orders is still far and away the worst and most blatant recycling that I've ever seen.

I'm genuinely amazed that they actually did that.

Not Carpenter Street then?

"ooo, lets send the crew back to present day earth! never done that before....except for in Tomorrow is Yesterday...and oh yeah...Assignment Earth...oh..and...the Voyage Home...oh..and then there was futures end!"

Ok...but we've never done it with ARCHER before!!! yay!

Dude, everyone knows that you're not a real Star Trek captain until you've visited present-day Earth.

 

[JB2005]

Haha I knew Picard sucked!

 

[Sandoval]

"ooo, lets send the crew back to present day earth! never done that before....except for in Tomorrow is Yesterday...and oh yeah...Assignment Earth...oh..and...the Voyage Home...oh..and then there was futures end!"

You're confusing episodes involving a similar theme - crew goes back to 20th century Earth - with two episodes where the degree of similarity is go great as to make them virtually the same episode with different casts and small changes.

Region of space fatal to most of the crew.
Check.
One crewmember is immune.
Check.
Crew goes to sleep while the ship traverses that region.
Check.
Immune crewmember is left alone to take care of the ship.
Check.
Immune crewmember is used to large groups and is uncomfortable being alone.
Check.
Immune crewmember begins to hallucinate another person.
Check.

And so on.

Sighting Tomorrow is Yesterday as being virtually identical to The Voyage Home just because they involve the crew going back to the twentieth century seems a bit silly to say the least.

 

[Sandoval]

Or do you really think Starfleet would encounter a force that could assimilate people, had personal force fields, could adapt easily to weapons fire, could upgrade the systems of any ship they get a hold of and are pretty much unstoppable and then decide, "Oh, I don't see any problem in making this information freely available!"

Give me an example of a problem it would cause having Starfleet officers knowing about it.

Something a bit concrete if you can rather than a general 'they would panic' or something equally general.

Because you seem to think that Captains are the ones making the decisions. The admirals are the ones deciding, "Let's send the Enterprise over here, and Potemkin over there."

The captains are the ones making the decisions once the ship arrives, often beyond the range of timely communication with the admiralty.

If and when a Starfleet ship out in the unknown does encounter this cybernetic race again, where is the advantage in the captain now knowing about it or having access to the information without waiting for an admiral to get back to them?

If starfleet knew about some force that could possibly do a lot of damage to them and then made that knowledge freely available, how long would it be before the Romulans, or the Breen or the Cardassians got a hold of it? And then those races would try to use it to their advantage, giving the Federation even more problems.

How would the Romulans knowing that there was a powerful unknown alien race with superior technology that could damage Starfleet, and by its very nature also damage the Romulan Empire, be of use to the Romulans?

How does Romulus also knowing about this powerful race give them an advantage over Starfleet exactly?

 

[Robert D. Robot]

Because you seem to think that Captains are the ones making the decisions. The admirals are the ones deciding, "Let's send the Enterprise over here, and Potemkin over there."

The captains are the ones making the decisions once the ship arrives, often beyond the range of timely communication with the admiralty.

If and when a Starfleet ship out in the unknown does encounter this cybernetic race again, where is the advantage in the captain now knowing about it or having access to the information without waiting for an admiral to get back to them?

It might make sense that -in certain cases- only an individual of the rank to command of a vessel or higher would be told of (or have clearance to access) certain such information. As an example, in the Voyager episode "The Omega Directive", it seems that no one below rank of captain is ever briefed on the existence of Omega Molecules- but captains ARE informed on the subject.