Rank in Starfleet

[The Wormhole]

Actually, I think Janeway should have been a 'Junior Captain' or 'Starship Captain' to Picard and maybe Sisko's Fleet Captain

If anything, Janeway's rank should have been Commander, based on the size of Voyager and both XOs (Cavit and Chakotay) held the rank of Lt. Commander. But of course the first female lead of a Trek series couldn't be anything less than a Captain, even though the crew would still address her as Captain anyway. Not to mention the first black lead of a Trek series spent three years as a Commander.

 

[Sgt_G]

The three scariest sentences uttered in Starfleet:

Crewman: Don't worry, I learned how to do this in tech school.
Ensign: In my experience, the best way to do this is ....
Chief: Forget the book, let me show you how it's done.

 

[Nyotarules]

In TOS and the Kelvinworld a Commodore manages a Starbase, so why was Sisko a mere Commander for three years?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

If anything, Janeway's rank should have been Commander, based on the size of Voyager and both XOs (Cavit and Chakotay) held the rank of Lt. Commander. But of course the first female lead of a Trek series couldn't be anything less than a Captain, even though the crew would still address her as Captain anyway. Not to mention the first black lead of a Trek series spent three years as a Commander.

Not that I disagree with the above, but I think having two different grades of Captain would be a good middle ground with at least some basis in canon. After all, most modern navies do have "Captain by title" have 2 to 3 different ranks, many translating as "X Captain" (For instance, the French have Corvette Captains, Frigate Captains and Ship(-of-the-Line) Captains; the Russians have "Captain-Lieutenant" (actually equivalent to a Senior Lieutenant or Staff Lieutenant Commander), "Captain 3rd Rank", "Captain 2nd Rank" and "Captain 1st Rank"; can't find exact translations for the PLA Navy but they have three "Hai Jun X Jiang" ranks equated to OF 7-9, four "Hai Jun X Xiao" equated with OF 3-6, and three "Hai Jun X Wei" equated with OF1 (junior) to OF3, then it seems obvious that given "Hai Jun" just means "Navy" that they have three grades of Admiral, four grades of Captain (including the RN style Commodore), and three grades of Lieutenant (Tho the most junior is usual associated with the US Ensign rank).

In TOS and the Kelvinworld a Commodore mananges a Starbase so why was Sisko a mere Commander for three years?

Because (in-universe) Bajor was basically conceived as a nothing assignment, so didn't warrant assigning valuable more senior officers.

 

[Nyotarules]

Not that I disagree with the above, but I think having two different grades of Captain would be a good middle ground with at least some basis in canon. After all, most modern navies do have "Captain by title" have 2 to 3 different ranks, many translating as "X Captain" (For instance, the French have Corvette Captains, Frigate Captains and Ship(-of-the-Line) Captains; the Russians have "Captain-Lieutenant" (actually equivalent to a Senior Lieutenant or Staff Lieutenant Commander), "Captain 3rd Rank", "Captain 2nd Rank" and "Captain 1st Rank"; can't find exact translations for the PLA Navy but they have three "Hai Jun X Jiang" ranks equated to OF 7-9, four "Hai Jun X Xiao" equated with OF 3-6, and three "Hai Jun X Wei" equated with OF1 (junior) to OF3, then it seems obvious that given "Hai Jun" just means "Navy" that they have three grades of Admiral, four grades of Captain (including the RN style Commodore), and three grades of Lieutenant (Tho the most junior is usual associated with the US Ensign rank).




Because (in-universe) Bajor was basically conceived as a nothing assignment, so didn't warrant assigning valuable more senior officers.

Once the wormhole was discovered, that should have changed.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Once the wormhole was discovered, that should have changed.

I think in a real world situation, Sisko would have been replaced. Though his status as the Emissary might have helped him keep the job.

 

[Nyotarules]

I think in a real world situation, Sisko would have been replaced. Though his status as the Emissary might have helped him keep the job.

That was probably the in universe reason, keep the Bajorans happy, so keep Sisko in the chair.

 

[The Wormhole]

In TOS and the Kelvinworld a Commodore manages a Starbase, so why was Sisko a mere Commander for three years?

I believe when DS9 was in the early stages, the intent was that Commander was only to be Sisko's title. Just as an officer in command of a ship is addressed as Captain regardless their actual rank, someone commanding a station is addressed as Commander regardless their actual rank. For a real world example, when Chris Hadfield was on the ISS he was addressed as "Commander Hadfield" despite his actual rank in the Canadian Forces being Colonel. Somewhere along the line, this got misunderstood/misinterpreted/forgotten and Sisko's actual rank ended up being Commander.

 

[Ithekro]

It is possible that "Deep Space Stations" don't rate a Commodore while Starbases rate that or even an Admiral. Station K7 didn't have a Commodore at all.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It is possible that "Deep Space Stations" don't rate a Commodore while Starbases rate that or even an Admiral. Station K7 didn't have a Commodore at all.

Seemed to be run by civilians

 

[MAGolding]

Something I wrote on another discussion board back in 2011:

A few weeks ago, I was reading stuff on FanFic dot com. It annoys me when I read a fiction story and see "At age 28, he was the youngest Captain ever." Go to the next story, and the main character ther was the youngest at age 27. Two stories later, someone else made their character a Captain at 26. I'm waiting to see the story in which teen-agers are commanding starships. {sigh}

Using real-world numbers, one cannot go to Academy or West Point until age 17. It takes four years to graduate ... none of this "Four years? I'll do it in three!" So an officer can be a 2Lt / Ensign at age 21. It takes two years to make 1Lt / LT-jg and another two for Capt / LT. That's pretty much set in stone.

Now, to move up to Major / LtCmdr and then to LtCol / Cmdr and again to COL / CAPT, the law requires three years time in grade for each promotion. Of course, no one is ever promoted at the minimum time, but let's say somehow someone does. They will be 17+4+2+2+3+3+3 = 34 years old when they make O-6 Captain.

In theory, you can have a child prodigy get his degree by age 18 and then get a direct commission via OTS / OCS. That shaves off three years, and it is legal to promote from 2LT to 1LT in 18 months vice 24 (I've never seen it happen). Ergo, the absolute youngest a person in the modern-day US military can theoretically make O-6 is age 30-1/2 years.​

Hope that helps the conversation here.......

Your are not correct to say that graduation in 4 years is universal. Some officers take longer to graduate. And in time or war, and perhaps in time of expected war in the era of Kirk, officers may be graduate and commissioned early. Thus a relative of mine graduated from West Point aged 20 years and a few weeks. Other officers have graduated and been commissioned even younger. So it is theoretically possible for someone in the modern-day US military is very precocious and has extremely lucky timing to become a captain or colonel as young as a year younger than you calculate.

The only thing certain about Kirk's age of captaincy is that he as 34 in "The deadly Years" and he as probably the commanding officer of Enterprise for about two to five years before that.

 

[Ithekro]

In one of the parallel universes Worf visited, where Picard had died and Riker was captain, Wesley was a Lt. jg. at tactical from what I recall. He might have gotten this after formally graduating at the academy, if they took into account his field promotion to Ensign prior to his academy service into account, or he was field promoted again by Riker after Riker became the undisputed captain of the Enterprise.

Worf has also been promoted rather quickly in the universe as well, seeing that he didn't make Lt. Commander until a year or two later in the regular universe, and has gone from Lt. jg. at the start to full Lieutenant after Yar's death.

 

[Timo]

The only thing certain about Kirk's age of captaincy is that he as 34 in "The deadly Years" and he as probably the commanding officer of Enterprise for about two to five years before that.

And even that is diluted a bit by two distinct possibilities:

- That "I am 34 years old!" is the demented rantings of a has-been who cannot even recall his own age, and his colleagues are too embarrassed to contradict him (which doesn't alter Kirk's now-confirmed birthyear of 2233, just the timing of "The Deadly Years").
- That he could be the CO of the hero ship at a rank lower than Captain (he does wear just Commander braid in the first pilot, and pleading "different braid system" sounds increasingly hollow now that evidence from multiple eras, TNG, ENT, 2230s, piles up to suggest an unchanging system).

That Kirk of the Prime universe would be exceptionally young at promotion to Captain is never stated or suggested, which in itself might be telling. There's that bit from "The Menagerie", too:

Commodore Mendez: "You ever met Chris Pike?"
Kirk: "When he was promoted to Fleet Captain."
Mendez: "About your age."

Since Pike obviously isn't born the same year as Kirk, Mendez must be meaning Pike got his promotion at about the same age as Kirk (indeed, the whole point of the dialogue is to paint a picture of a man who used to be Kirk's spitting image in every respect - only now he's a wreck of a man, and we in the audience must view with dread that it could perhaps happen to our hero one day as well).

"The same age as Kirk" can then be defined as "your age now as we speak, Jim - you of course were a bit younger when you got your own promotion, some time before that Corbomite nastiness" or "the age you were when you got your own promotion - you of course are a bit older now". Only the former interpretation would have any hope of making Kirk special. But it's the less fitting match for Mendez' clipped turn of phrase.

(Yes, yes, we also have to decide whether "Fleet Captain" is a higher rank than the one Kirk is holding, or the same rank. If the former, then we learn that Pike, not Kirk, is the one with a good claim to record speed to rank. If the latter, it's a tie. Either way, "Kirk is not special" is the safe bet.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sgt_G]

In my mind, Fleet Captain is not a rank, per say, but more of an honorary title and duty title for a senior O-6 Captain who is slated to be charge of a squadron of ships in a multi-ship mission / combat situation. This is what the US Navy did with the title Commodore, which used to be the rank of a O-7 one-star (now Read Admiral - Lower Half), as it's the duty title of the senior O-6 or the O-7 in command of a squadron or small task force.

I recall reading a book (by James Doohan, if memory serves) in which the Marine O-3 Captain and Fleet O-6 Captain rank titles were eliminated so that the person in command of the ship, regardless of O-rank, is the only Captain on a ship.

 

[The Wormhole]

I recall reading a book (by James Doohan, if memory serves in which the Marine O-3 Captain and Fleet O-6 Captain rank titles were eliminated so that the person in command of the ship, regardless of O-rank, is the only Captain on a ship.

That is practiced in modern times, at least not in the US Navy, where on aircraft carriers its common to have upwards of five naval officers ranked Captain on board besides the CO.

 

[Timo]

That the confusing terminology exists is a perfect excuse for Starfleet to formally apply the definer "Fleet" in front of the O-6 rank designation in certain cases. That is, Pike may have been the captain of the Enterprise for ages, but at O-5 or O-4 rank (or even O-3 if his sleeve is to be believed in "The Cage"), and his promotion to O-6 Captain rank must not sound as if he were being made captain or unmade captain or anything ambiguous like that.

OTOH, people being promoted out of Constitution commands at the O-5/O-6 juncture already is a scenario made less likely by the fact that there are O-7 commanders on some of those midget ships... Then again, we don't learn what made Pike leave the ship exactly.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[galad2003]

I never knew if O'Brian was Chief because he as a Chief Petty officer or Chief Warrant Officer. I suspect the latter which is why he had the responsibilities he did. FWIW, the NAvy has pretty much done away with Warrant officers. They still exist but pretty rare.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

O'Brien was a CPO, because Sergey Rozhenko recognized him as such. "Always good to meet another Chief Petty Officer"!

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I never knew if O'Brian was Chief because he as a Chief Petty officer or Chief Warrant Officer. I suspect the latter which is why he had the responsibilities he did.

A little of both I suspect (similar to the RN system where WO2 (no longer awarded) was equivalent of SCPO/MCPO and WO1 is equivalent of CMC/COB. There is no separate payscale.

FWIW, the NAvy has pretty much done away with Warrant officers. They still exist but pretty rare.

Technicially true, Warrant Officer 1 (WO-1) has been discontinued, however both the USN and the USCG continue to appoint Chief Warrant Officers (USN: CWO-2 to 5, USCG CWO-2 to 4).

However, you might be thinking of the USAF, which discontinued use of them by 1980 (promotions by 1960) in favor of using the new Senior Master Sergeant and Chief Master Sergeant ranks in their place.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I never knew if O'Brian was Chief because he as a Chief Petty officer or Chief Warrant Officer. I suspect the latter which is why he had the responsibilities he did. FWIW, the NAvy has pretty much done away with Warrant officers. They still exist but pretty rare.

O'Brien is a CPO

SERGEY: Always good to meet another Chief Petty Officer. Sergey Rozhenko, formerly of the USS Intrepid.
(shakes hands)
O'BRIEN: Miles Edward O'Brien, sir. Good to meet you