Rank in Starfleet

[J.T.B.]

I believe that at the Academy, in classes, you are recognized as a Cadet. When a cadet is assigned to a vessel for training duty, working alongside full officers/teachers, being addressed as Midshipmen would to seem to follow.

That would be the classic British division, cadets in classrooms ashore, midshipmen as sort of junior-junior-officers getting on-the-job experience in the fleet. The USN had something similar before 1912, and though it didn't use a different title, graduate midshipmen had to serve two years in the fleet before commissioning, with a uniform like an ensign but with a narrower stripe.

The thing is, though, when midshipmen were referred to in TOS they were pretty clearly "at the Academy."

It makes much more sense to assume that Kirk graduated from the Academy as an Ensign, the way most cadets do, had the incident with Finney on the Republic some time after that, and later transferred to the Farragut with Captain Garrovick, where he was promoted to Lieutenant. That jibes with everything we're told about Kirk's career in TOS. As the Captain of the Republic was never named, we can assume that this was also Garrovick. That way he can still be Kirk's commanding officer from the day he left the Academy.

Pretty much the way I've always figured it. Ensign Kirk following Garrovick to Farragut and making JG around that time or soon after is not much of a stretch.

The idea of graduating from the Academy as a lieutenant is a little baffling to me. What is the ensign rank for, then?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The idea of graduating from the Academy as a lieutenant is a little baffling to me. What is the ensign rank for, then?

I didn't mean to suggest it was standard practice for everyone, just Kirk.

 

[Timo]

That still introduces a complication we don't need: we know for certain that Ensign Kirk exists, after all.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

I didn't mean to suggest it was standard practice for everyone, just Kirk.

Why just Kirk? Besides raising the question of where Ensign Kirk fits into the scheme.

 

[Timo]

It doesn't sound all that natural for Starfleet to give super-duper early promotions to "a stack of books with legs". If Kirk did something heroic before graduation, and got a better graduation rank (rather than a medal) for it, why do we never hear of such a feat?

But different people do different things at SF Academy. Kirk took the no-win scenario test, while Spock never did. Kirk had command ambitions, Spock did not. Perhaps doing the command curriculum while undergraduate gives you extra rank, but you can also first graduate and then attend command school, meaning you get the promotion later, or even not attend command school at all, meaning you have to get your promotions in other ways. And doing it in three years rather than four or five also gives you brownie points, possibly.

Still shouldn't make Kirk unique, I guess. And he's never stated to be unique, or even rare. He's just the Iowan farmboy who made good, the exact sort that Starfleet needs and often gets.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tallguy]

It hasn't been mentioned, but Saavik was actually lt. JG. There is a full lt. in TSFS. (On the Grissom?) Saavik's rank device is in two parts and the officer on the Grissom has a single piece.

The jumpsuits are supposed to be crew (like in TOS). I wanted to throw something at the screen when one of the text commentaries on (IIRC) Star Trek VI said there was a cadet on screen, even though they did not have the red collar.

 

[J.T.B.]

The jumpsuits are supposed to be crew (like in TOS).

But in TOS officers and crew wore the same uniforms. The jumpsuits were "working dress."

 

[oswriter]

The US Navy had already dropped the commodore grade when TOS was being made in the '60s.

Commodore is actually both a one-star flag rank and a title referring to the the senior captain in a group of ships. The rank has not been used in the U.S. Navy since the 1950s but I believe the title is still used even today. That would also be consistent with TOS, where Commodores were senior captains (like Matt Decker) or officers in charge of a starbase.

 

[J.T.B.]

Commodore is actually both a one-star flag rank and a title referring to the the senior captain in a group of ships. The rank has not been used in the U.S. Navy since the 1950s but I believe the title is still used even today. That would also be consistent with TOS, where Commodores were senior captains (like Matt Decker) or officers in charge of a starbase.

Congress abolished the commodore grade in 1899, but it was brought back for temporary wartime use in 1943, mostly for older recalled officers who would not stay in the peacetime navy. A handful lasted till 1949.

Any USN captain whose command entitles him/her to a broad command pennant is properly called commodore. As you noted, this is a traditional title and not a flag rank, and their uniform is the same as any other captain. But commodores in Starfleet are flag officers ("The Deadly Years") and wear different insignia, so it seems more like an actual grade than a title.

 

[The Wormhole]

One thing: the US has not had a Fleet Admiral since the second world war, that I'm aware of. IIRC that rank is strictly reserved for wartime. I'm pretty sure Starfleet has had at least one Fleet Admiral when there was not a war on (can't remember exactly who).

You're probably thinking of Fleet Admiral Shanthi from Redemption Part 2, who the script claims is supposed to be Starfleet's Chief of Staff, although she wore the insignia of a Vice Admiral, three boxed pips.

Also, in STID Marcus had five rank devices on each shoulder, suggesting he was a Fleet Admiral.

 

[Six of Twelve]

^I did find it strange a doctor in charge of a starship (crew 430 in TOS and up to 1000 in TNG) is a LCDR and Julian Bashir fresh out of school is Head of Medical on a starbase (Population who knows?)
Probably a reflection that Starfleet did not value Starbase 9 at all.

On DS9, O'Brien is called Chief, presumably an enlisted rank, like a chief petty officer. Yet his role is much greater than on TNG - he is a department head and his duties and responsibilities correspond to that of a chief engineer aboard a ship, who is always an officer. Yet O'Brien remains enlisted, which seems unfair. He has to call Bashir, fresh out of the academy, with no experience and probably 15 to 20 years younger than him, "sir". Same with Nog after he got his field commission to Ensign.

 

[Nerys Myk]

On DS9, O'Brien is called Chief, presumably an enlisted rank, like a chief petty officer. Yet his role is much greater than on TNG - he is a department head and his duties and responsibilities correspond to that of a chief engineer aboard a ship, who is always an officer. Yet O'Brien remains enlisted, which seems unfair. He has to call Bashir, fresh out of the academy, with no experience and probably 15 to 20 years younger than him, "sir". Same with Nog after he got his field commission to Ensign.

That's how ranks work. All officers outrank enlisted personnel. Years of experience do not factor into it. When a CPO with 20 years of service addresses a Ensign fresh out of the Academy he calls him "Sir".
If for some reason O'Brien did get a commission he'd probably be an Ensign and Bashir would still outrank him.

 

[oswriter]

As you noted, this is a traditional title and not a flag rank, and their uniform is the same as any other captain. But commodores in Starfleet are flag officers ("The Deadly Years") and wear different insignia, so it seems more like an actual grade than a title.

But wasn't the commodore in "The Deadly Years" a starbase commander? Which again suggests the writers saw it as more of a job title. Not that the TOS writers believed in continuity much.

You're probably thinking of Fleet Admiral Shanthi from Redemption Part 2, who the script claims is supposed to be Starfleet's Chief of Staff, although she wore the insignia of a Vice Admiral, three boxed pips.

This raises the question of just how the heck is Starfleet organized? Outside of DS9, there's no mention of actual fleet structures like you see in the USN (Pacific Fleet, Atlantic Fleet, et al.) And the Enterprise basically reports to a different random admiral every week.

 

[C.E. Evans]

But wasn't the commodore in "The Deadly Years" a starbase commander? Which again suggests the writers saw it as more of a job title.

If we go with the idea that a commodore was simply a senior captain in TOS, a commodore could command either a starship, a starbase, or a small taskforce of starships.

Not that the TOS writers believed in continuity much.

They actually did once concepts like the Federation and the Starfleet were finally nailed down. "I, Mudd" was a follow-up to "Mudd's Women," and the Organian Peace Treaty was referenced (either directly or indirectly) a couple of times following "Errand of Mercy." "Journey to Babel" went into greater detail on Spock's brief mention in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" that one of his ancestors had married a Human. Otherwise, there really weren't that many episodes that really tied into one another.

This raises the question of just how the heck is Starfleet organized? Outside of DS9, there's no mention of actual fleet structures like you see in the USN (Pacific Fleet, Atlantic Fleet, et al.) And the Enterprise basically reports to a different random admiral every week.

Starfleet could be regularly organized by sectors of strategic importance, with the number of ships in each sector varying. During times of conflict, the smaller "sector fleets" could possibly be combined to form larger tactical fleets like the ones we saw in DS9. The Enterprise--both in TOS (because of the 5-year mission) and in TNG (as the Federation flagship)--could be a special case of not being permanently assigned to a particular sector and always going to wherever she was needed.

 

[Timo]

The organization we see is of course the sum total of random contributions from random writers, costumers and the like. But TNG is not in conflict with the DS9 idea of numbered fleets - indeed, e.g. references to "the fleet" in "Best of Both Worlds" are best interpreted as being to a specific numbered fleet rather than Starfleet as a whole. Furthermore, fleet numbers might be analogous to the chest badges of TOS, with each fleet featuring its own Constitution, and the arrowhead fleet perhaps being especially prominent and symbolically important and stuff, but not that special out in the TOS frontier, apart from being the one in camera focus.

Sector commanders of three-pip flag rank, plus numbered fleet commanders of two- or three-pip flag rank, would explain away a lot of the randomness we see. Sector command might be supplemented by command over special issues, too: Admiral Haden would be the man in charge of Romulan stuff, say, and Nechayev the woman in charge of the Cardassian DMZ and/or special ops.

In early DS9, there are two starbases and two semi-recurring Admirals. We might assume both are relatively distant, and further that SB 375 gets founded later on and becomes prominent, along with sector commander Ross.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Six of Twelve]

That's how ranks work. All officers outrank enlisted personnel. Years of experience do not factor into it. When a CPO with 20 years of service addresses a Ensign fresh out of the Academy he calls him "Sir".
If for some reason O'Brien did get a commission he'd probably be an Ensign and Bashir would still outrank him.

Yes, I already knew that. But you missed my point, which was that he should have been given a commission commensurate with his position and responsibilities on DS9 as a department head. As his position on DS9 :corresponded to a chief engineer aboard a ship, he should have been at least a lieutenant. His enlisted status may have been appropriate aboard Enterprise, but not on DS9.

The calling of attention of him having to call Bashir and especially, Nog, "sir" was to show the inappropriate nature of leaving him enlisted on DS9, not to show ignorance of traditional rank etiquette.

 

[J.T.B.]

But wasn't the commodore in "The Deadly Years" a starbase commander? Which again suggests the writers saw it as more of a job title. Not that the TOS writers believed in continuity much.

He was a starbase commander, but he also said he was "of flag rank," so clearly higher than a captain. British commodores and USN "titled" commodores are not flag officers. He took command by virtue of that rank, not because of his job on a starbase. It was also showed in "The Doomsday Machine" that commodore was a higher rank. And what does the insignia mean if not the rank of commodore? Behind the scenes, TMoST said that the next level above starships were starbase commanders with the rank of commodore. Speaking of that...

This raises the question of just how the heck is Starfleet organized? Outside of DS9, there's no mention of actual fleet structures like you see in the USN (Pacific Fleet, Atlantic Fleet, et al.) And the Enterprise basically reports to a different random admiral every week.

The part we see is pretty clearly more like a 19th century cruiser squadron/station organization than a concentrated battle fleet model. The squadron was the main operational echelon, cruising ships cruised around (of course) doing varied jobs and reported, when able, to a regional commander in a port. Due to communication lag, they were often only loosely supervised. Bases were scattered around where some levels of maintenance could be carried out. If war broke out, these scattered ships would harass the enemy (especially merchant shipping) as best they could in their area. What Enterprise did when war broke out in "Errand of Mercy," taking control of a nearby port to deny it to the enemy, is classic cruiser warfare.

Of course the British Navy had some big battle fleets in strategic locations, too (Channel Fleet, Mediterranean Fleet). Whether Starfleet has something similar is not clear, but the way they respond to alien invasions and the like makes it seem like they don't.

 

[jaime]

It doesn't sound all that natural for Starfleet to give super-duper early promotions to "a stack of books with legs". If Kirk did something heroic before graduation, and got a better graduation rank (rather than a medal) for it, why do we never hear of such a feat?

But different people do different things at SF Academy. Kirk took the no-win scenario test, while Spock never did. Kirk had command ambitions, Spock did not. Perhaps doing the command curriculum while undergraduate gives you extra rank, but you can also first graduate and then attend command school, meaning you get the promotion later, or even not attend command school at all, meaning you have to get your promotions in other ways. And doing it in three years rather than four or five also gives you brownie points, possibly.

Still shouldn't make Kirk unique, I guess. And he's never stated to be unique, or even rare. He's just the Iowan farmboy who made good, the exact sort that Starfleet needs and often gets.

Timo Saloniemi

Wasn't it also that he was exceptionally young for a Captain?

 

[Timo]

No, apparently not.

That is, it wasn't remarked on in any episode or movie. Some background material and offscreen works make note of his age, but it's not part of the onscreen canon.

There's TNG "Conspiracy" where four conspirators meet, and Picard says that one of them, Scott, "made Captain faster than anybody in Starfleet history, present company included". (Picard wouldn't be the type to boast for himself, so one or both of the other two, Rixx and Keel, may have reached the rank or the position at an early age.) But we never learn exactly how young Scott was, so we can't easily compare against Kirk who first wears full Captain braid at the start of TOS, at the age of 33 or thereabouts.

Of course, the Kirk of the new movies makes Captain at 25-26 or so, in exceptional circumstances. We may argue we have solid proof the Kirk of TOS did not get the rank that early, because he still wears Commander braid in his first appearance in "Where No Man", supposedly not long before the regular episodes being at what we know now is 2266 or so, 33 years after his birth.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[milo bloom]

It doesn't sound all that natural for Starfleet to give super-duper early promotions to "a stack of books with legs". If Kirk did something heroic before graduation, and got a better graduation rank (rather than a medal) for it, why do we never hear of such a feat?

But different people do different things at SF Academy. Kirk took the no-win scenario test, while Spock never did. Kirk had command ambitions, Spock did not. Perhaps doing the command curriculum while undergraduate gives you extra rank, but you can also first graduate and then attend command school, meaning you get the promotion later, or even not attend command school at all, meaning you have to get your promotions in other ways. And doing it in three years rather than four or five also gives you brownie points, possibly.

Still shouldn't make Kirk unique, I guess. And he's never stated to be unique, or even rare. He's just the Iowan farmboy who made good, the exact sort that Starfleet needs and often gets.

Timo Saloniemi

Regarding the part I bolded - perhaps this is the Advanced Tactical Training course that Ro Laren attended that got her back her LT rank (and that Chekov was hypothetically attending during the events of the Animated series, thus causing him to rejoin the crew for the V'Ger incursion as an LT at the weapons station)?