Rank in Starfleet
- Thread starter Nyotarules
- Start date
The officer ranks appear to be mostly in with modern practice, except that (with the exception of Sisko in s3 and one guest character) that most "Ship's Captains" appear to be "Captain by rank" rather than merely "Captain by role" (by modern protocol, Janeway should have been a Lt Commander or Commander according to the above (or a SF-specific 'junior captain' rank sitting between O5 & O6), and the Defiant should have had a dedicated Lt/Lt Cmdr as "Captain" (Worf being the obvious available character).
While fanon seems to follow the USN system fairly closely (as above), I think the limited available evidence suggests slightly less ranks. O'Brien's "Senior Chief patch" has five indicators on it with room for a sixth (consistent with Fletcher's system for TMP and the "Monster Maroons". I currently see two possible systems (one is below):
E1 = Starfleet Recruit (no insignia, held at "school". wears training uniform. USN E1-2).
E1a = Crewman (no insignia, wears branch insignia/uniform. Limited deployment opportunities. USN E3)
E2 = Crewman 1st Class (single chevron/diamond. Full deployment opportunities. Equivalent of USAF Snr Airman (IIRC know as A1C 1952 to 1967) or US Army Specialist). Qualified for independent duty/trainer but not an NCO.)
E3 = Petty Officer 2nd Class (double chevron/single octogon. Not assigned during TMP. Equivalent of USN E4 to E5).
E4 = Petty Officer 1st Class (triple chevron/single octogon ("fancy"). Known as Petty Officer during TMP era, equivalent of USN E6 otherwise).
E5 = Chief Petty Officer (triple chevron & one pip/octogon & cockade. Equivalent of USN E7)
E6 = Senior Chief Petty Officer (triple chevron & two pips/octogon with bar and cockade. Equivalent of USN E8)
E7 = Master Chief Petty Officer (triple chevron & three pips/octogon with wide bar & cockade. Equivalent of USN E9.
Re: Warrant Officers. The US currently (IFAIK) doesn't have any Warrant Officers, but with the exception of the AF maintains varing numbers of the Chief Warrant Officer ranks. This IIRC is to do with the payroll implications for personnel transitioning from NCO ranks (depending on their NCO rank, they would have been paid less for more responsiblity). Most other countries (including the UK) have Warrant Officer as part of the enlisted payscale rather than it being separate. O'Brien being refered to occassionally as "Mister O'Brien" and being given a relatively important position despite being enlisted might indicate that this is also the case with Starfleet.
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E0??? I don't know where you found that, but it's so very wrong on so many levels ......
Modern-day USAF enlisted: E1 = Airman Basic (AB), E2 = Airman (Amn), E3 = Airman First Class (A1C), E4 = Senior Airman (SrA), E5 = Staff Sgt (SSgt), E6 = Technical Sgt (TSgt), E7 = Master Sgt (MSgt), E8 = Senior Master Sgt (SMSgt), E9 = Chief Master Sgt (CMSgt). There used to be two E4 ranks, the SrA and Sgt, but they eliminated Sgt in 1993.
The US Army still has Warrant Officers, and probably 3/4 of helo pilots are Warrant Officers.
The pay scale increases both by rank and time-in-service. There is a pay scale for O1E, O2E and O3E, prior-enlisted officers, so that they don't drop down in pay by getting a commission. The US Navy has (or at least had) a program for Limited Duty Officers where selected PO1s and CPOs would be promoted to junior officers to fill holes in the ranks. If memory serves, they capped out at O3 and did not need to have a BS/BA degree. Maybe that's what happened with Chief O'Brien --- he became a LDO Ensign or Chief Warrant Officer.
Modern-day USAF enlisted: E1 = Airman Basic (AB), E2 = Airman (Amn), E3 = Airman First Class (A1C), E4 = Senior Airman (SrA), E5 = Staff Sgt (SSgt), E6 = Technical Sgt (TSgt), E7 = Master Sgt (MSgt), E8 = Senior Master Sgt (SMSgt), E9 = Chief Master Sgt (CMSgt). There used to be two E4 ranks, the SrA and Sgt, but they eliminated Sgt in 1993.
The US Army still has Warrant Officers, and probably 3/4 of helo pilots are Warrant Officers.
The pay scale increases both by rank and time-in-service. There is a pay scale for O1E, O2E and O3E, prior-enlisted officers, so that they don't drop down in pay by getting a commission. The US Navy has (or at least had) a program for Limited Duty Officers where selected PO1s and CPOs would be promoted to junior officers to fill holes in the ranks. If memory serves, they capped out at O3 and did not need to have a BS/BA degree. Maybe that's what happened with Chief O'Brien --- he became a LDO Ensign or Chief Warrant Officer.
No, that is not happening. In the 1960s something like that was started, phasing out warrants in favor of commissioned LDOs, but it never came to pass.
Warrant officers grade W-1 are used in the US Army and USMC. Upon promotion to W-2 they become Chief Warrant Officers and are commissioned by the President with the advice and consent of the Senate, just like a second lieutenant or ensign. The USN and USCG start them out at W-2 for the reasons mentioned above. The Army appoints large numbers of WOs (primarily helicopter pilots) directly from civilian life, while in the other services they have to come up from the enlisted ranks.
Generally speaking, Navy CWO is a technical specialist, a highly qualified expert in the field in which they served as petty officers. A LDO is a technical manager, more focused on administering and managing personnel in their technical field, but not as broadly "generalized" as a commissioned line officer. LDOs usually come from E-6 and junior E-7, CWOs from senior E-7 and up. The LDO program originated after WW2 so officers promoted from enlisted would not have to compete for promotion with the traditional college grad officers and could continue to benefit the Navy in their specific career field.
As I recall, the term "branch admiral" was also used once on TNG but with no implication whether this was a distinct admiralty rank/position. FASA's Trekverse did introduce a Branch Admiral rank for their TNG module, who were specialists in specific branches such as medical and security. Perhaps FASA intended this to mean McCoy would have been a branch admiral (medical) by TNG, but this isn't directly stated. The TNG module also made fleet captain into a distinct flag position, above commodore and below rear admiral, where earlier FASA works in the TOS era suggested it was more of a formal title. A TNG fleet captain would have five pips and have a very specialized role overseeing the development of new classes like the Galaxy; FASA said there were only three such posts in the early TNG era (Galaxy class, Excelsior class, and Alaska class).
I seem to recall that, for FASA purposes, it was the first option. A midshipman was a new graduate on their early operational training with a short time to make ensign, or higher if the circumstances were special. Amusingly, the TNG manual has an "ensign j.g." rank based apparently on O'Brien's single hollow pip from EAF. I suppose the full ensigns need to boss around someone...
I would think Commodore and Fleet Captain would be the same relative position on the rank chart, with one still being a Line Officer while the other was a Flag Officer. Their scale would be the same, with different tasks. One might imagine a Fleet Captain's Five Pips would have seniority a lot of the time over many Commodores and Rear Admirals, but a two Boxed Pip Rear Admiral would likely outrank a Fleet Captain, as oppose to the one Boxed Pip Commodore/Rear Admirals.
Speaking of odd ranks, just what equivalent was Sloan's four Pips with a bar under it suppose to be of someone in Starfleet? It must have a functional rank, as it wasn't questioned at all.
Speaking of odd ranks, just what equivalent was Sloan's four Pips with a bar under it suppose to be of someone in Starfleet? It must have a functional rank, as it wasn't questioned at all.
Logically, Fleet Captains would be the Line Officers (equivalent UK Brigadier, NATO OF-6) and Commodores/Rear Admiral LH would be the Flag Officers (equivalent US Brigadier General, also OF-6). Admirals would always technically outrank line officers, but the Commodores especially would be well advised not to "throw their weight around" with the (Fleet) Captains as they should be focused on the big/long-term picture not individual taskings.
Identified as Deputy Director in dialogue, however current equivalences suggest that Special Agent in Charge (GS-15) or Deputy Assistant Director (SES 1) would be more compatible with the insignia shown.
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I've always favored the idea that fleet captains in TOS had three full stripes as their insignia.
I actually have that post bookmarked on my computer. It was a big help in coming up with realistic career trajectories for my ST chronology.
Agreed.
I guess the question would be does this equate to four full pips or four pips and bar in TNG+? (Personally, I respect their intentions with the "Deputy Director" rank but logically four pips should equal three stripes and "Starship Captain" should have three full pips and one dark one (so that there is a complete system of 1/2 steps from the start in both systems).
The same system could also be used for enlisted personnel (Extrapolated from ENT):
E1 = Crewman Recruit (no stripe. No Divsion. USN E1)
E2 = Crewman Trainee (no stripe. Division colors. USN E2-3)
E3 = Crewman 3rd Class (Qualified. 1/2 Stripe. Can act as Team Leader but not an NCO. US Army Specialist or USAF Senior Airman (E4) or RN Able Seaman.)
E4 = Crewman 2nd Class (Junior NCO. 1 stripe. USN E4/5)
E5 = Crewman 1st Class (Junior NCO. 1 1/2 stripes. USN E6)
E6 = Chief Petty Officer (Senior NCO. 2 stripes. US Armed Forces E7)
E7 = Senior Chief Petty Officer (Senior NCO. 2 1/2 stripes. US Armed Forces E8)
E8 = Master Chief Petty Officer (Senior NCO. 3 stripes. US Armed Forces E9/E9+)
Three pips and one black pip = The seldom heard of rank of senior commander (Latvia) or Yarbay (Turkey) which is a short term preparation rank to get the officer ready to take command of a larger ship. If it was Starfleet, it would be the rank Riker would be promoted to before taking command of a Galaxy-class starship (or if it is of similar size and prestige, the Titan).
Another contender for that could be "vice-captain," a rank used in a couple of other fictional navies for an officer below a captain but above a commander.
Well, there was an officer named Branch in ST:TMP, but he wasn't of flag rank.
No, no "branch admirals" mentioned in dialogue. Scripts may be a different matter, but scripts don't matter (or else the Outrageous Okona would really have an "infectious" laughter bubbling from his "ruggedly handsome" lips).
That a rank named Fleet Captain should exist in Starfleet is far from said: the single episode with such dialogue ("The Menagerie"; there is no mention of Fleet Captain in "Whom Gods Destroy") is ambiguous on the issue. But if it does, it might well be three full braid, thus one step above Kirk's 1-½-1 "Junior Captain" rank - and we just miss out on Junior Captains or Vice Captains in later Trek.
Timo Saloniemi
Well, there was an officer named Branch in ST:TMP, but he wasn't of flag rank.
No, no "branch admirals" mentioned in dialogue. Scripts may be a different matter, but scripts don't matter (or else the Outrageous Okona would really have an "infectious" laughter bubbling from his "ruggedly handsome" lips).
That a rank named Fleet Captain should exist in Starfleet is far from said: the single episode with such dialogue ("The Menagerie"; there is no mention of Fleet Captain in "Whom Gods Destroy") is ambiguous on the issue. But if it does, it might well be three full braid, thus one step above Kirk's 1-½-1 "Junior Captain" rank - and we just miss out on Junior Captains or Vice Captains in later Trek.
Timo Saloniemi
Actually, I think Janeway should have been a 'Junior Captain' or 'Starship Captain' to Picard and maybe Sisko's Fleet Captain (the later two were assigned much bigger missions and Picard has up to thirty years more experience in command than she does, some sources indicate may have been before she was born)
Fair point.
How about it depends on assignment? E5s (or if unavailable E4s) who have taken intitial leadership training (required to become a Chief) may take the title of Petty Officer if acting as the Shift/Section/Department Lead but remain substantively Crewman 2nd or 1st Class as applicable.
At age 17, Wesley Crusher was given a uniform and the rank of Ensign before entering the Academy. Apparently a Captain can do that in the oh so civilized 24th Century. In the Yesterday's Enterprise alternate timeline he's also an Ensign and fighting in a war.
Actually, per current Royal Navy policy, that's not that unlikely. Unlike the USN which prefers/requires graduates for all commissioned officers, non-technical officer billets are available to non-graduates in the Royal Navy. For instance Submarine Warfare Officer (probably the closest equivalent currently available to a Starfleet Command Division Officer) training is available to 16+ who have completed their GCSEs (which compare roughly to a US high school diploma).
And it makes sense that Yesterday's Wesley has his commission, as that version of Starfleet has taken massive losses and of course they'd need all the qualified people they could get.
Particularly if you consider that the role that Wesley had on the Enterprise was one normally crewed by an enlisted crewman rather than an officer in 20th/21st Century naval forces, and I don't think it would be much of a stretch to suggest that his prior knowledge would stand in place of basic training (meaning that he was "promoted" straight to Able Crewman (USN E3+, RN Able Seaman, USA Specialist or USAF Senior Airman)).
Of course it's also possible that YE Wes has already graduated from the Academy by the time we see him. Maybe he was allowed to enter at an earlier time than the regular Wes did.
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