Rank in Starfleet
- Thread starter Nyotarules
- Start date
Chiefs just know.
I am thinking of my time in the Navy, I encountered one Warrant officer in my time of serving and there was talk of doing away with them all together. Maybe they reversed that after I got out.
We might well pretend that his two pips in TNG were of some different color from the commissioned officer pips, discernible to Sergey and others but not to the audience. O'Brien has two pips in late DS9, too - they just happen to be part of a symbol also involving three chevrons.
Yup, sudden dramatic need to emphasize the fact that Barclay outranks O'Brien. The writers had been more or less in agreement about that already, but now the costumers got on the wagon, too.
It's just too bad that the number of pips went down, so we can't easily plead that his earlier two pips were "always black". At best, we can argue they were "always bronze" or whatever, which makes for a rather complicated system.
Timo Saloniemi
Not exactly. Although Realm of Fear is the first time we see O'Brien wearing the single hollow pip, the first time we saw anyone doing so was Gillespie in Night Terrors, although it remains unclear if he was intended to be a Chief or if he was meant to be an Ensign and costuming screwed up. Memory Alpha does call him a Chief, for whatever that's worth. Regardless, Chief Brossmer in The Next Phase also wore the single hollow pip and was referred to in dialogue as "Chief."
I played with idea of an "enlisted bronze, cadets and officers silver, flag officers gold" commbadge rank system based on the "Future Imperfect"/"Parallels" style badge, but I agree that it wouldn't work as well for just collar pips (although in the RW the "butterbar" vs silverbar and gold v silver oakleafs seems to work ok?)
SPOCK: Thank you, Lieutenant. Doctor McCoy, Doctor McCoy!
MCCOY: (waking up) Yes, Spock? What is it?
SPOCK: Several hours ago, at the request of this board, you ran a complete physical examination of Captain Kirk.
MCCOY: I did.
SPOCK: Medical banks, compute described subject's physical age, using established norms as comparative base.
COMPUTER: Working. Subject's physical age based on physiological profile, between sixty and seventy two. Aging rapidly.
KIRK: No, I'm thirty four. I'm thirty four years old.
STOCKER: The computer differs with you, Captain.
Nobody ever said that Kirk was wrong about his chronological age, merely about his physical age.
Of course if they simply didn't bother to correct Kirk about his chronological age he could have been older or younger than 34 at that time. "Shore Leave" in the first season should have been roughly about 6 months to 2 years before "The Deadly Years" .
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KIRK: What's the matter, Bones, you getting a persecution complex?
MCCOY: Well, yeah, I'm beginning to feel a little bit picked on, if that's what you mean.
KIRK: I know the feeling very well. I had it at the Academy. An upper classman there. One practical joke after another, and always on me. My own personal devil. A guy by the name of Finnegan.
MCCOY: And you being the very serious young
KIRK: Serious? I'll make a confession, Bones. I was absolutely grim, which delighted Finnegan no end. He's the kind of guy to put a bowl of cold soup in your bed or a bucket of water propped on a half-open door. You never knew where he'd strike next. More tracks. Looks like your rabbit came from over there.
MCCOY: A girl's footprints. The young blonde girl I saw chasing it.
KIRK: Yes. You follow the rabbit. I'll backtrack the girl. I'll meet you around the other side of the hill.
MCCOY: Good. I've got a personal grudge against that rabbit, Jim.
(They split up, and then suddenly there's a young man leaning against a tree trunk)
FINNEGAN: (in a dreadful cod-Irish accent) Jim.
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Later:
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He picks an orange flower, and becomes wistful. And there she is, blonde and lovely, her dress half white, half black and roses.)
KIRK: Ruth? Ruth.
RUTH: Jim, darling, it is me. It is Ruth.
(She kisses him)
Captain's log. Stardate 3025.8. Investigation of this increasingly unusual planet continues, and we are seeing things that cannot possibly exist, yet they are undeniably real.
[Rocky outcrop]
KIRK: (into communicator) McCoy, do you read me? Ruth. Ruth, how can it be you? How could you possibly be here? You haven't aged. It's been fifteen years.
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later:
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SPOCK: There is one slight possibility, very slim, but nevertheless. Captain, what were your thoughts just before you encountered the people you described?
KIRK: I was, I was thinking about the Academy. My days
FINNEGAN: Hey, Jim baby! I see you brought out reinforcements. Ha! Well, I'm waiting for you, Jimmy boy.
KIRK: Finnegan. Finnegan! What's been happening to my people?
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KIRK: A lot of things. What's been happening to my people?
FINNEGAN: I never answer questions from plebes, Jimmy boy.
KIRK: I'm not a plebe. This is today, fifteen years later. What are you doing here?
FINNEGAN: I'm being exactly what you expect me to be, Jimmy boy.
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Kirk seems to have last seen Finnegan in Kirk's plebe (first) year at the Academy. If Kirk entered the Academy aged 17.0 to 22.99 he would be aged 17.75 to 23.74 at the end of that year. Adding 15.0 to 16.0 years to that makes Kirk 32.0 to 39.74 in "Shore Leave". Six months to 2 years later Kirk would be aged 32.5 to 41.74 in "The deadly Years".
Assume that "Journey to Babel" and "Amok Time" happen within six months of "The Deadly Years" when Kirk is aged 32.0 to 42.24.
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AMANDA: After all these years among humans, you still haven't learned to smile.
SPOCK: Humans smile with so little provocation.
AMANDA: And you haven't come to see us in four years, either.
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So Spock has not taken leave to visit his parents in four years, or about 3.0 to 5.0 years, and thus since Kirk was about 27.0 to 39.24.
in "Amok Time":
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KIRK: I'm more interested in your request for shore leave. In all the years
SPOCK: You have my request, Captain. Will you grant it or not?
KIRK: In all the years that I've known you, you've never asked for a leave of any sort. In fact, you've refused them. Why now?
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If Kirk could not really keep track of if Spock took shore leave until becoming captain of the Enterprise and working with Spock, then Kirk should have been captain of the Enterprise for at least 2.0 years or since Kirk was 30.0 to 40.24 or younger.
Note that Kirk had the rank of captain by "Court Martial":
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COMPUTER: James T. Kirk, serial number SC937-0176CEC. Service rank, Captain. Position, Starship command. Current assignment, USS Enterprise.
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^ But who's to say Kirk went right to the academy out of secondary school?
Kirk's biography in The Making of Star Trek 1968, probably based on the writer's guide and thus semi canonical, says that Kirk entered Star Fleet Academy aged 17, the minimum age.
If that was correct then Kirk was age 17.0 to 17.99 when he entered, and age about 17.75 to 18.74 at the end of that academic year when Finnegan dropped out or graduated or took a cadet cruise or whatever. If that is "15" years before "Shore Leave" that should be about 15.0 to 15.99 years, making Kirk age 32.75 to 34.73 in "Shore Leave: and thus about 33.25 to 36.73 in "The Deadly Years".
The Making of Star Trek, and probably the writer's guide, also says something like: "Kirk was the youngest Academy graduate to be assigned as a starship command captain." Not the youngest to have the rank of captain in Starfleet, not the youngest person to command a star ship, but "the youngest academy graduate to be assigned as a starship command captain".
in "Court Martial":
COMPUTER: James T. Kirk, serial number SC937-0176CEC. Service rank, Captain. Position, Starship command. Current assignment, USS Enterprise.
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I thought all Captains in Starfleet had to be Starfleet Academy graduates. No?
You can be assigned to command a starship prior to earning the rank of Captain. Commander Riker took command of USS Enterprise when Picard was assimilated by the Borg, and was later field promoted to Captain. Riker had been offered command of several starships prior to this event, and it is not clear if the would have been promoted to the rank of captain on transfer or kept the rank of Commander on the smaller ship until later getting promoted to the rank of Captain.
Someone who is enlisted and not gone to the academy could in theory get command of a ship depending on what sort of field promotions are given, or how many people died on the ship first.
Also in Star Trek (2009) Kirk in theory is not yet an academy graduate when he takes command of the USS Enterprise from First Officer Commander Spock.
Someone who is enlisted and not gone to the academy could in theory get command of a ship depending on what sort of field promotions are given, or how many people died on the ship first.
Also in Star Trek (2009) Kirk in theory is not yet an academy graduate when he takes command of the USS Enterprise from First Officer Commander Spock.
Realistically, the CO of a Defiant-class (as opposed to Sisko who was mostly the CO of DS9) should be a Lieutenant Commander (or maybe a Commander if you think that Fleet Captain still exists and is (sometimes) held by the CO of the biggest and best ships).
He was indeed intended to be a Lt. Commander, though costuming screwed up and he wore a Lieutenant JG's pips.. Also, the writer meant for the Prometheus to be a smaller ship. A Nebula class is basically a Galaxy class without the neck between the saucer and secondary hull, and therefore would likely have enough of a crew to warrant an O6 Captain.
Worf pretty much was the CO of the Defiant, and he was a Lieutenant Commander. Strangely enough, no one ever referred to him as "Captain" even though he should have been as per naval tradition, like they did when Dax was in command during the war.
I suspect that is because there was an (unseen) formal transfer of command to Dax vis-a-vis the Defiant during the war (as Sisko was officially part of Ross' staff at the point) whereas Worf or Kira (who outranked who there? It was really confused sometimes) were basically doing an extended "Officer of the Watch" rotation with Sisko still technically being "in command" of the Defiant (or at least her mission) even if he wasn't actually on board.
Does that make sense?
No, the ship really was Worf's command. The matter is even laid out between the two of them in Apocalypse Rising:
Indeed, when Sisko isn't on the Defiant, Worf has always been in command, even when Kira was aboard, and she had to follow his orders. This actually was consistent throughout most of the series. The only exception was Tears of the Prophets, when Sisko had to leave the bridge due to his Prophet-related business, Kira took command despite Worf being there. That is an oddity that's never been explained, and indeed, considering Bajor had a non-aggression pact with the Dominion, it's really inappropriate for a Bajoran Militia officer to take command of a starship that's part of an offensive against Dominion territory.
Agreed on that last point, but then that was/is pretty typical of Kira.
As far as the rest, you could still interpret that as Worf saying that "(he) commands the Defiant, in Sisko's absensce." (which as you pointed out above, is generally true. However, Sisko is consistently depicted as the Defiant's CO when on board, so basically, what Worf is saying is that he replaced Kira as the Defiant's XO (which IMO is entirely proper, the ship should have had at least a couple of dedicated senior staff from Day 1).
In a real world setting, Sisko shouldn't have been able to take command of the Defiant away from Worf anymore than an Admiral could take command of the station from him. Indeed, note that Admiral Ross had no actual part of the station's chain of command when he actually set up shop on the station in season 7. But of course, this is a TV show and Sisko is the lead, so of course he's going to boot Worf out of the Captain's Chair when he shows up on the Defiant.
But Worf isn't the captain of the Defiant. At most he's the first officer - as that Apocalypse Rising quote demonstrates. With Sisko gone, Kira commands the station, and Worf commands the Defiant. But we don't even know if that's standard, or specific instructions: "Major, while I'm gone the station is yours. Worf, if the Klingons try anything, you've got discretion to take the Defiant. I'll be back in a week".
Sisko is the Defiant's captain, which was clearly established before Worf even showed up.
Sisko is the Defiant's captain, which was clearly established before Worf even showed up.
I wonder if the novels get things right of if they follow the errors of the tv shows/movies 
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