Quark's root beer analogy of the Federation
- Thread starter Ragitsu
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@Ragitsu,
It seems the OP in this thread is mainly a critique of the US implied as the Federation, unlike the ‘ideal’ image the Federation had in earlier Trek series. You wrote previously,
At best, the USA is a ballroom dress on a corpse: pretty at a distance, but it stinks to high heaven the closer you get.
…you ought to get your nation to stop its absurd "War on Drugs" not only domestically but in abutting southern nations as well.
It might help to know your location, to understand your perspective. You make a valid point about the war on drugs.
To me, THE biggest problem in the US now is too many guns and mass shootings. Something Star Trek has never addressed, obliquely or otherwise. Sorry to get political and off topic but felt a need to respond.
It seems the OP in this thread is mainly a critique of the US implied as the Federation, unlike the ‘ideal’ image the Federation had in earlier Trek series. You wrote previously,
At best, the USA is a ballroom dress on a corpse: pretty at a distance, but it stinks to high heaven the closer you get.
…you ought to get your nation to stop its absurd "War on Drugs" not only domestically but in abutting southern nations as well.
It might help to know your location, to understand your perspective. You make a valid point about the war on drugs.
To me, THE biggest problem in the US now is too many guns and mass shootings. Something Star Trek has never addressed, obliquely or otherwise. Sorry to get political and off topic but felt a need to respond.
@Trekker09
Eh, main problem of the US is that they have their culture, think it is the best, and don't understand that it might not work for everybody^1. Or even for them - gun shootings are not necessarily caused by guns^2. And this, I think, is precisely the problem Quark implies Federation has. They have something, said something works for them, they are happy with it... and so they think that said thing will automatically work for everybody else as well.
This, however, is not necessarily correct. Same thing which lifts one society out of mud and into prosperity may end up completely destroying a different society. Or even the society that it lifted into prosperity in the first place. Yet Federation believes that their way of life is the best, and so want to spread it through the stars... just like the Borg.
1^If you want to see a different perspective, do read at least some of the following: 01,02,03,04,05,06,07,08,09,10,11,12,13
2^From the same blog: 14
I don't want to turn this political either (well, not in terms of real life politics anyway, but Star Trek is inherently political), but point is that there are many different perspectives. And I chose the above articles because many of these points may be directly applied to the Federation, despite being about modern-day West.
Eh, main problem of the US is that they have their culture, think it is the best, and don't understand that it might not work for everybody^1. Or even for them - gun shootings are not necessarily caused by guns^2. And this, I think, is precisely the problem Quark implies Federation has. They have something, said something works for them, they are happy with it... and so they think that said thing will automatically work for everybody else as well.
This, however, is not necessarily correct. Same thing which lifts one society out of mud and into prosperity may end up completely destroying a different society. Or even the society that it lifted into prosperity in the first place. Yet Federation believes that their way of life is the best, and so want to spread it through the stars... just like the Borg.
1^If you want to see a different perspective, do read at least some of the following: 01,02,03,04,05,06,07,08,09,10,11,12,13
2^From the same blog: 14
I don't want to turn this political either (well, not in terms of real life politics anyway, but Star Trek is inherently political), but point is that there are many different perspectives. And I chose the above articles because many of these points may be directly applied to the Federation, despite being about modern-day West.
That is an interesting trait amongst humans that theoretically can be grown out of, depending on the person. Realizing that not everything is for everyone is one the biggest challenges that I think humans face. I recall, when I was much younger (early teens) being surprised that an adult had not read a particular book that I thought was very well done. To this day, I still find amusement in things that are supposedly universally praised without the recognition that not everything is for everyone. Reminds me of the TV Series MASH:
"What about individuality?"
"Well, individuality is fine as long as we all do it together."
Star Trek always fascinates me because it talks about diversity and uniqueness of individuals yet attempts to make it all the same. TOS' Way of Eden, for all it's other flaws, attempted to call out this tendency too. I don't think it landed quite right.
As others have noted, in the root beer scene --
Quark is not claiming the Federation forces itself on other cultures.
He’s not complaining about lack of diversity.
He’s grumbling because the Federation makes it harder for him to get away with theft, exploitation and deceit.
Quark is not claiming the Federation forces itself on other cultures.
He’s not complaining about lack of diversity.
He’s grumbling because the Federation makes it harder for him to get away with theft, exploitation and deceit.
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Yes, indeed. However, I was responding to a poster and my own observations of human behaviors.
Yep. You see it in many areas of life. For example: this particular religious faith works for me, I believe it to be the truth, so you should adopt it too. Or 'democracy works for us, so it should work for every country on earth'. Or 'when I was in this dire spot in life, I handled the situation such-and-so, so you should, too'.
The only thing coming to my mind even remotely skirting that is the illegal Varon-T disruptor of Kivas Fajo. And I believe we know of other outlawed weapons in the Federation, but on the whole, I don't think there's any evidence of 'regular gun control' in the Federation.
Of course, gun control wouldn't be needed either, with all those evolved humans. They'd have to introduce a Klingon or other planet-of-hats episode to address it.
That does explain why "office" romances involving differences in rank are allowed.
I think he's complaining about the Federation pressuring other cultures to adopt its values and about Federation legal regimes making it harder for him to get away with theft, exploitation, and deceit (which are, one must remember, normative values in his culture). It can be both things, and there can be validity to some of what he's saying but not all.
That seems pretty obvious, doesn't it? The Federation was often used as an idealized stand-in for the U.S. in TNG, and that idealization was often deconstructed in DS9.
I dunno man. The unmitigated cultural chauvinism of the Federation in TNG seems pretty similar to how the U.S. likes to think of itself.
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