Okay, I'll bite.
I don't think the Falcon would fit inside the TOS shuttle bay.
By the way your VRML Enterprise is very cool. You should start your own thread about it!
I second FalTorPan on both counts!
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Pros and cons of Franz Joseph's plans
- Thread starter TIN_MAN
- Start date
I second FalTorPan on both counts!
Well, thanks for the delightful reviews!
And I'll take your advice - I'll try to figure out how to start a thread...
I figured I needed to get my photos onto a server somewhere...
I joined PhotoBucket.
I copied some of the pics off my website and onto PhotoBucket...
Now I gotta figure out how to get them to show up here...
Here goes nothing:
So looks like I'm off to start a thread - I guess it'll have to be under this same category...?
And I'll take your advice - I'll try to figure out how to start a thread...
I figured I needed to get my photos onto a server somewhere...
I joined PhotoBucket.
I copied some of the pics off my website and onto PhotoBucket...
Now I gotta figure out how to get them to show up here...
Here goes nothing:
So looks like I'm off to start a thread - I guess it'll have to be under this same category...?
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Its been awhile since I watched the episode. The ship was reduced to firing phasers, and could not load torpedoes or reinforce shields. So a damaged power converter might explain that, making it impossible to convert warp plasma to standard EPS. What can't be explained as easily is the inability to use warp propulsion.
On the other hand, just because sabotage to crystals was committed in one location doesn't mean that it didn't occur in other locations as well (the ship was on impulse moving within the system so it presumably would have been safe to enter the nacelles, not to mention the dilithium drawer room). So if all the crystals on the ship were damaged, raw dilithium replacements were the best solution. Alternately, it would have been a much shorter episode if Scotty would have just asked someone to swap some crystals in from the drawer room, or the wherever spares are kept, if the pedestal really is the central M/AM reactor. If the pedestal is the M/AM reactor, then "what's the tube room?" becomes the next question.
Alternately, the pedestal is the receiver mechanism for a transportable dilithium assembly (I forget the TNG term). i.e., and its conceivable that its moved from some other location. Pick whether this is a mini turbolift type arrangement or a Trek type intraship transport. Whether what is shown is compatible with two separate sections from each nacelle is another matter (I don't have screenshots at the moment). But that's stretching it. Maybe it does come from the tube room. Maybe it was in the tube room and now is outside it for access. We're all spitballing here.
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Ok, to show I can be "Merc-i-ful... And Quick!" [well, Gorn quick] I'll split the remainder of my backlog in half.
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As to the undercut, see my "CS-FJ-Alan Sinclair-Rearticulated-Fore.jpg" diagram ( http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv118/whorfin777/th_CS-FJ-AlanSinclair-Rearticulated-Fo.jpg ) and check out Impulse Engineering in relation to the yellow undercut line, the corridor starts to have a problem (it already had one) not the set itself. Actually, you're right about FJ being constrained in placing his version of Main Engineering (ME) where he did. But it wasn't a post-show Roddenberyism. The "Day of the Dove", at the least, is the nail in the coffin that at least a particular version of "Engineering" and the tube room are in the primary hull. If I remember right the script dictates that the bulkheads below Decks 6 or 7 (someone help me out) are shut, most of the crew are trapped below them, yet we still see the untrapped people traipsing around in what appears to be ME. Since the bridge is still accessible, we can't count the decks the other way -- upward from the bottom -- we are in a pickle. So, its got to be in the primary hull, and (if you want to get nit-picky about it) it has to be above that last sealed off deck, and since its at least two decks in height (not to mention having a curved corridor outside) placing it on Deck 6 & 7 and having the tube room being an access port to the impulse engine housing is about the only logical remaining choice. The alternative being placing it (at least in part on FJ Deck 5 or higher). So, at worse, he dented the canon to put ME in the most viable location in the Primary Hull, but didn't break the canon by ignoring the episode. [Show of hands for those wanting to declare "Day of the Dove" apochraphal?] Pretty good observation for someone who didn't even like the syndicated show. But I'm sure this is not a new observation.
If we were to accept that the reaction takes place in the nacelles, are we sure there would be enough room in the nacelles to store matter and antimatter for the reaction? Is it possible the 'converter' and the 'tubes' behind the mesh are 'pumps' that pump the fuel up into the nacelles for each reactor?
Or, is it possible that the 'converter' is a 'first stage' reactor that causes an initial reaction, the plasma from which is channeled through the 'tubes' into the nacelles, where multiple crystals are used to create secondary reactions that actually generate most of the power? In this scenario, the tubes might also double as power taps for the rest of the ship's systems, or that might be the function of the two 'freestanding' units in the engine room. I'm also assuming for this scenario matter and antimatter are also both kept in the hull.
Or, is it possible that the 'converter' is a 'first stage' reactor that causes an initial reaction, the plasma from which is channeled through the 'tubes' into the nacelles, where multiple crystals are used to create secondary reactions that actually generate most of the power? In this scenario, the tubes might also double as power taps for the rest of the ship's systems, or that might be the function of the two 'freestanding' units in the engine room. I'm also assuming for this scenario matter and antimatter are also both kept in the hull.
Actually in that episode you can absolutely take the script's included lines (like lower decks) as hyperbole because we were provided with a diagram of what areas of the ship were cut off from what other areas... and areas of the secondary hull were shown to be accessible.
Besides, Jefferies' pressure compartments are the skeleton around which the meat of my deck plans are based. So that is one third season episode I'm for keeping!
"So much for the little training cruise..."
Yes it's true, the Millennium Falcon can't fit into the TOS Enterprise Shuttle Bay...
It might fit lengthwise, but not widthwise.
I've got pics...
This is from below, looking up (ventral view).
Yes it's true, the Millennium Falcon can't fit into the TOS Enterprise Shuttle Bay...
It might fit lengthwise, but not widthwise.
I've got pics...
This is from below, looking up (ventral view).
Here's one in which the details are a little easier to see:
And there's this one:
in 3d - getcher glasses out ma!
And there's this one:
in 3d - getcher glasses out ma!
Here's one in which the details are a little easier to see:
And there's this one:
in 3d - getcher glasses out ma!
It looks like the Galileo could be "clamped" between the Falcon's forward mandibles. Interesting!
If Peter Griffin just holds on to the front of the Falcon, I'm sure the Enterprise could fly like that. 
As much as I would like for it to, I just don't think engineering works in the primary hull. I think there is probably a small, one-level impulse engineering up there, which might be able to correspond with a small one-off set we've seen, or might be something that we haven't seen, perhaps along with engineering department offices as suggested in 'TMoST.' We might want to creatively reinterpret 'TMoST's references to engineering headquarters at the rear of the saucer meaning engineering headquarters for the saucer only.
But I think FJ's configuration for engineering just doesn't work. There isn't enough room for it to stretch as far as it does, with the saucer undercurve taken into account. If we pretend engineering is narrow, it might barely fit in the neck, but I really doubt it. I have never tried it, but I wonder how well the engineering set would fit if moved upward to allow ceiling clearance in the radiator-type element atop the saucer? Somehow, I don't think it wold work any better.
As much as I would like for it to, I just don't think engineering works in the primary hull. I think there is probably a small, one-level impulse engineering up there, which might be able to correspond with a small one-off set we've seen, or might be something that we haven't seen, perhaps along with engineering department offices as suggested in 'TMoST.' We might want to creatively reinterpret 'TMoST's references to engineering headquarters at the rear of the saucer meaning engineering headquarters for the saucer only.
But I think FJ's configuration for engineering just doesn't work. There isn't enough room for it to stretch as far as it does, with the saucer undercurve taken into account. If we pretend engineering is narrow, it might barely fit in the neck, but I really doubt it. I have never tried it, but I wonder how well the engineering set would fit if moved upward to allow ceiling clearance in the radiator-type element atop the saucer? Somehow, I don't think it wold work any better.
Oh, there are undoubtedly numerous "engineering spaces" in the primary hull. Just not "main engineering."If Peter Griffin just holds on to the front of the Falcon, I'm sure the Enterprise could fly like that.
As much as I would like for it to, I just don't think engineering works in the primary hull. I think there is probably a small, one-level impulse engineering up there, which might be able to correspond with a small one-off set we've seen, or might be something that we haven't seen, perhaps along with engineering department offices as suggested in 'TMoST.' We might want to creatively reinterpret 'TMoST's references to engineering headquarters at the rear of the saucer meaning engineering headquarters for the saucer only.
But I think FJ's configuration for engineering just doesn't work. There isn't enough room for it to stretch as far as it does, with the saucer undercurve taken into account. If we pretend engineering is narrow, it might barely fit in the neck, but I really doubt it. I have never tried it, but I wonder how well the engineering set would fit if moved upward to allow ceiling clearance in the radiator-type element atop the saucer? Somehow, I don't think it wold work any better.
The real problem here, as far as I'm concerned, is a tendency for people to think of the ship in terms of "rooms." As if someone just came up with a cool shape, cut the inside up into volumes, then put the hardware into those rooms.
A "real" ship is designed in a very different manner. You build it from the inside out... almost opposite of what I think some folks are thinking here.
In other words... you start with the critical hardware, the critical routing, the critical mechanical structures to support all of that. THEN, once it's all in place, you start fitting control rooms and support facilities and storage spaces and, eventually, living spaces, around that.
So don't think of it so much as "rooms." It's not a flying hotel, it's a big machine which just happens to have pressurized spaces for people to work the machine (and repair the machine) from, and for those people to live when they're not operating it or repairing it.
I've said before, I don't care for the external layout of the Galaxy Class, but I LOVE the level of thought that went into making it "real" after that point. The idea of it being a huge spaceframe with habitable volume modules strung up throughout it as necessary makes great sense. I have no problem with the earlier-generation ships not taking that approach (and being "hard-structured") but I still think the idea of it being a machine first, and having the various spaces inside conforming to the machinery instead of vice-versa is by far a better idea.
That said...
Of COURSE there are engineering spaces in the P-hull. There will be engineering spaces for access to and control of the life-support and recycling systems in there. For access to and repair of the computer systems. For access to, repair and fueling of, and local control of the propulsive (including maneuvering) systems.
But none of those are the "main engineering" room. Main engineering is located close by the most critical systems in the main ship's hull. Undoubtedly, the propulsion control computer, the power-conversion systems, etc. Whether the power GENERATION occurs there or not is debatable, but that's almost trivial, I think. This facility isn't where you perform the main repairs on broken hardware, it's where you CONTROL the propulsion systems from and monitor their condition. So technically, this COULD be anywhere.
The only real hardware in "Main engineering" are the big transformer sets which seem to move around on the engineering set floor from show to show. I think those really are step-down transformers... but your mileage may vary.
Well, I for one tend to use 'room' in place of 'compartment' simply because there are less letters to type, but I get your meaning.
I would disagree slightly with your assessment of main engineering though. While it may be different on TOS than the later series and films, in every other instance not only is it the main control center, but the main power generation is present in the form of the intermix chamber/warp core so there's at least direct access to the critical component if not to all components.
I would argue that the 'dilithium pedestal' in the later versions of the set corresponds in some regard, although whether the two main versions of the set are two different compartments entirely is something else.
I would disagree slightly with your assessment of main engineering though. While it may be different on TOS than the later series and films, in every other instance not only is it the main control center, but the main power generation is present in the form of the intermix chamber/warp core so there's at least direct access to the critical component if not to all components.
I would argue that the 'dilithium pedestal' in the later versions of the set corresponds in some regard, although whether the two main versions of the set are two different compartments entirely is something else.
There's a key reason why I have a big problem with the power generation being in the nacelles, beyond the onscreen references pointing towards the secondary hull and the fact that every other ship has an internal M/AM reactor.
It's that putting the works up in the nacelles overcomplicates the layout and adds an unnecessary level of vulnerability for the sole purpose of holding to a single sentence in TMoST that clearly wasn't fully thought out. Even during the second season, when the book was written, there were plenty of references that pointed towards the secondary hull, so who the hell knows where the idea that Engineering was next to the impulse engines came from. Probably that damned curved corridor.
It's that putting the works up in the nacelles overcomplicates the layout and adds an unnecessary level of vulnerability for the sole purpose of holding to a single sentence in TMoST that clearly wasn't fully thought out. Even during the second season, when the book was written, there were plenty of references that pointed towards the secondary hull, so who the hell knows where the idea that Engineering was next to the impulse engines came from. Probably that damned curved corridor.
Is there really anything in the book that suggests that power generation occurs in the nacelles though? From what I recall, it just places 'headquarters for engineering' in the rear of the saucer near the impulse deck. I just hate having to throw the thing out entirely.
Okay, I guess I'll weigh in on this one...
I was under the impression that the Warp field was generated around the perimeter of the primary hull and in the nacelles - since TOS days. I know I read it somewhere, but I haven't been able to remember where all day.
The nacelles have never been a power generator, only a warp field generator.
There are several power generators on the TOS Enterprise:
- matter/anti-matter - presumably in the crystal pedestal (so the one cylinder beside the pedestal contained matter and the other anti-matter), and not several crystals all over the ship as some episodes claimed (sheesh!), sending plasma to nacelles to generate the warp field
- reaction control - could have been been driven by plasma or ejected plasma
- impulse engines - those three big thingies behind the fence at the aft end of primary engineering were actually the impulse engines, but several scripts implied they were the warp engines (which doesn't make sense to me). (Yes there were three - look at the deckplans!)
You have to remember that the primary hull couldn't travel at warp alone without the secondary hull - no nacelles, no warp!
Strangely enough, there's no pipes to the pedestal or away from it. And the only thing under the pedestal is the turbolift tube!
So how did the matter/anti-matter plasma generated in primary engineering get to secondary engineering if it fed the warp nacelles? Answer - it didn't! How do I know? Because the secondary hull could generate a warp field without the primary hull, that's how I know.
So now I've figured out everything and you can all get back to your lives.
Go on....
Go do laundry...
LOL
I was under the impression that the Warp field was generated around the perimeter of the primary hull and in the nacelles - since TOS days. I know I read it somewhere, but I haven't been able to remember where all day.
The nacelles have never been a power generator, only a warp field generator.
There are several power generators on the TOS Enterprise:
- matter/anti-matter - presumably in the crystal pedestal (so the one cylinder beside the pedestal contained matter and the other anti-matter), and not several crystals all over the ship as some episodes claimed (sheesh!), sending plasma to nacelles to generate the warp field
- reaction control - could have been been driven by plasma or ejected plasma
- impulse engines - those three big thingies behind the fence at the aft end of primary engineering were actually the impulse engines, but several scripts implied they were the warp engines (which doesn't make sense to me). (Yes there were three - look at the deckplans!)
You have to remember that the primary hull couldn't travel at warp alone without the secondary hull - no nacelles, no warp!
Strangely enough, there's no pipes to the pedestal or away from it. And the only thing under the pedestal is the turbolift tube!
So how did the matter/anti-matter plasma generated in primary engineering get to secondary engineering if it fed the warp nacelles? Answer - it didn't! How do I know? Because the secondary hull could generate a warp field without the primary hull, that's how I know.
So now I've figured out everything and you can all get back to your lives.
Go on....
Go do laundry...
LOL
Well thanks for that!
I agree with your suggestions.
It is all about getting bogged down... the bog is on deck 8!!
Thanks for the offer of help!
Granny - gitcher 3d glasses!
The actual text in TMoST is a teensy bit vague, and can be interpreted to allow for Main Engineering to be down in the secondary hull while "the headquarters for the engineering division", which sounds more administrative than technical, can be up by the impulse engines (an idea that's supported by the scene in "The Naked Time" when Scotty tells that crewman to "go up to my office and pull the plans to this bulkhead." Even the second half of the sentence about "main engineering control facilities" also being up there isn't necessarily a deal breaker, since it's followed by the qualifier "to service the primary section when detached from the star-drive sections of the vessel." For when everything is attached, however, things are run out of the big room in the lower hull with the big glowy tube thingy.
I'm game for interpreting it that way. I was actually just skimming that section before I saw your post and it seems to work out nicely if we interpret it that way and ignore the Roddenberry mandate.
To address the topic of the thread though, the question then is: should FJ's plans be changed to reflect this, and if so, how?
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