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Production Order Group Viewing 2018

What is this strange "Thanksgiving" of which you speak? I and my British brethren know it not. Something to do with turkey shaped meat loaf, perchance? :devil:

But yes, it's a busy time of year. Perhaps once a fortnight though, so momentum in the project isn't completely lost?

It's an Earth holiday wherein synthetic meatloaf is served. I think it started in Canada
 
I'm cool with continuing. Perhaps the break (or breaks) will be better needed around the holidays.

How did the members do it in the 50th anniversary re-watch discussion?
They are watching episodes on the same dates they aired 50 years ago. We're waiting for the 3rd season to start in September.
 
As has been pointed out before I don't get how easily it is to jettison someone to his death by the press of one button.
If I were captain of the Enterprise I would have probably jettisoned a few people with my elbow when reaching for a coffee.
Kirks defense should have been the Occupational Health and Safety risk of the button set up.
 
In the future, we've learned not to fear words, unless you're on ion pod duty. If the Captain says , "One moment, Yeoman, I'll just put this PADD down here," we've learned to fear them a lot.
 
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I posted a picture upthread of the changes in Kirk's control panel.
Maybe those semi spherical things are actually covers, to prevent him accidentally leaning on the buttons during non ion storm situations?
 
I forgot to comment on the new sets this week. Stone's office with a private transporter, Kirk's apartment with a view of the Starbase, the lounge, the court room with the boomerang window / dimensional logo. A lot of effort to build new for this one episode. Really developed the feel for this universe.
 
THE MENAGERIE
(Parts 1 & 2)

Part 1 is the stronger half IMO, if only because part 2 is mostly just watching people watching TV. It really brings out Spock's strong loyalty streak and the absurd lengths he will go to do what he feels is in the best interests of his friends.
Then again, this is par for the course with Spock (thinking ahead to TWOK)

Initial thoughts: Commodore Stone is gone! Was the court martial his final action before retirement? Is that why he didn’t want the stain of a disgraced captain on his record?

Lots of FUTURE TALK!
"There's no trouble in the space sector we're patrolling now. No alien problems"
In part 2 Kirk describes Pike’s condition as a “recent space disaster

Kirk calls back to the events of last week's adventure:
“A computer expert can change record tapes, duplicate voices, say anything, say nothing."
We get to see some of that in action, where Spock able to fake computer records with his bare fingers.

The Engine Room set is again redressed, this time as the computer control room on Starbase 11. I think that set might just be the most versatile one ever built!

I see the same company that constructed the Neural Neutraliser for Dr Adams also built the computer machinery on Starbase 11.

Kirk and Mendez chase after the Enterprise IN A SHUTTLE! Did the previous Commodore repair all those other starships before he left? Are there none left who could have given chase.
Although it is a pretty nifty shuttle; it almost catches up with the Enterprise when she’s travelling at maximum warp!

McCoy should know better than to think Spock’s human half is submerged – he saw him act out of desperation on Galileo. However, it does match the weeks of observation that McCoy gave Spock leading up to that incident – and it’s a natural assumption to make.

At the end of the story, Kirk calls Spock out on his emotional behaviour in the same way McCoy did – Spock has clearly learned from that occasion and defends himself more successfully IMO
 
This has to be one of the best edit jobs of any series. "The Cage" is 63 minutes long. Both of these episodes are about 49 minutes each. So, despite the fact this is essentially a clip show, they did film nearly an entire TOS episode to frame around "The Cage." And it's near seamless! As if it really was supposed to work this way all along.

For years and years I wondered about certain aspects of "The Cage" and how they incorporated them into "The Menagerie." The scene at the end with Pike returning to Talos IV and reuniting with Vina was one that I just couldn't figure out. Finally being able to see "The Cage" in it's entirety was really a gratifying experience.

This is one of the few times where following production order does not make sense in viewing. We were just at Starbase 11 last week and now we are back again. Last week Commodore Stone was in charge and this week it's Mendez. It definitely would make more sense to have this episode further away in the viewing order from "Court Martial." Fun fact, "Court Martial was produced first but shown 10 episode AFTER this 2 parter.

So last week Kirk and Spock beam directly to Commodore Stone's office. Well, Spock does as Kirk's already there. This week they beam down at some other location. It's possible, just odd. Maybe there was some reason for the different beam down location. This Miss Piper has no rank stripe on her sleeve. Is she related to Dr. Piper, formerly of the Enterprise? She's looking around as if she's expecting the landing party but isn't quite sure where they will materialize at. It's like she's looking up and down as if she will see them fall from orbit, LOL. She also mentions another woman who has told stories about Jim Kirk. Another point for the "ladies man" reputation.

So, Pike wasn't at Starbase 11 last week? Was he being moved? Was he there and we just didn't know? He's been hurt for months. Did Kirk's court martial worry Spock? Surely these plans were in motion for a while now. In fact, in the Ensign's Logs podcasts the two guys on there operate under the assumption Spock set this up over a series of weeks or a couple of months prior to execution and that he may have had assistance.

And what is up with this beep chair of Pike's? Helloooo! This is the future hundreds of years from now! Pike needs a chair and computer like Professor Hawking had. He'd communicate like normal. Honestly, even with 1960s understanding, Pike could have communicated with Morse Code. That would have taken too long for the episode, but it would have been an understood idea for 1960s audiences. If he can blink once for yes and twice for no, Pike could communicate in Morse.

Commodore Jose Mendez. Another valiant effort in the 1960s to portray a future of racial equality.

Love the redress of Engineering for the Computer Center. And the similar console types makes the tech universe believable. Same organization using the same systems. The original Enterprise viewscreen from "The Cage" appeared last week as the viewscreen in the court room and again this week as the viewscreen in the court room on the Enterprise.

Miss Piper wears the starburst patch that seems to belong to Starbase personnel. Mendez' assistant or whatever has the Delta. The one "captain" or whomever he is in Pike's Orion Slave illusion also wears the Delta.

No privacy for Pike. Guess he can't do much in that chair 24/7, but that feeling of always being watched on a monitor is a bit Big Brother.

Again Starfleet personnel not acting or reacting rationally in the face of a security issue. The guy that caught Spock messing around should have alerted security first, then tried to stop Spock.

McCoy goes from insubordination and nearly undermining Spock in "The Galileo Seven" to being his most passionate defender this week.

General Order 7. Death penalty for anyone going to Talos IV. No contact whatsoever. They even have a special security binder about the encounter from 11 years ago. Yet nothing is in the binder? I mean, that file does not explain the reason for the quarantine of Talos or the death penalty. No mention of Talosians or the ordeal Pike went through. So what does the binder contain? What happens if the Ferengi or Klingons or someone other than Starfleet arrives at Talos?

Speaking of the binder....
Subject: TALOS IV in the third quadrant of vernal galaxy.

Known Facts: Detailed information cross referenced with 3XY phagrin level - mass computer

The only Earthship that ever visited planet Talos IV was the USS Enterprise commanded by Captain Christopher Pike with Half-Vulcan Science Officer Spock.

Recommendations: Be it hereby noted that said following instructions be incorporated into STARFLEET policy - -

NO ONE WILL EVER VISIT TALOS IV.

The following officers have visited Talos IV and recommended that no human should ever visit it again - -

Captain Christopher Pike

Half-Vulcan Science Officer Spock

STARFLEET COMMAND
BY ORDER OF
Robert L. Comsul
COMMANDING OFFICER

Lot of speciest centric wording in that binder. Earthship. No human should ever visit. Twice mentioning that Spock was half-Vulcan.

Vulcans are incapable of lying. Except for Spock. Maybe it's because he's only half Vulcan?

Enterprise left at maximum warp. The shuttle was able to keep up but not overtake the Enterprise. The shuttle had the same warp speed as the Enterprise. Either the shuttle was docked by remote control, dragged in by tractor beam, or was beamed into the shuttle bay. Mendez and Kirk were beamed off the shuttle prior to it being stored in the shuttle bay.

Stardate 3012.4. Some people clinging to the first digit being the year of the 5 year mission would mean this episode is in year 3. Stardate 3013.1 is roughly 24 hours after 3012.4.

McCoy knows a shuttle is following the Enterprise. This is another indicator that the others in addition to the bridge crew know what is going on in and around the ship.

No vessel makes record tapes in this detail. Except the Enterprise did just last week. Multiple angles, zoom upon command.

Starfleet could detect transmissions from Talos IV beamed to the Enterprise. This would mean they weren't illusions being broadcast. The events of 11 years ago were being transmitted via normal communication methods. And Starfleet could detect this several light years away.

That illusion of the fight on Rigel VII would be so different today. Vina would participate instead of being the helpless damsel.

I hate to give Timo credit, but... Vina initially was an illusion. She really wasn't at the SS Columbia crash site. She even disappeared after leading Pike to the entrance. Later in the cell, Vina disappeared again. She must have been an illusion that time as well. Vina must have been in a separate cell elsewhere. Yet her illusion walked around with the Enterprise crew once they escaped Pike's cell. She was an illusion of a whole, normal looking woman the whole time until the very end. So, was there a real Vina? For story purposes there must have been, but the evidence is that she was an illusion the whole time. If there was a real Vina, she was locked away in a separate cell.

So why did the Talosians go to all this effort with the crash site trap and so forth? With illusion they can make anyone see anything and do anything. Mendez was an illusion from the moment they started going to the shuttle until the end of the trial. At what point was the real Mendez substituted with the illusion? What did the real Mendez see? Did he plan on going to the shuttle with Kirk? Did Mendez have an illusion of being on the Enterprise? If the Talosians are this powerful, why not use illusion to contact Starfleet and Pike directly? Why not cause an illusion and manipulate everyone so Pike is loaded onto a ship and delivered to Talos? They could even create the illusion so that not even Starfleet knows a ship was sent to Talos. Heck, they could have kept Pike at the beginning and sent an illusion of him back to the Enterprise. They could have just blown the Enterprise up once Pike beamed down.

Shout out to Talosian Bob and Marc! Good to see them again!

Thank goodness the restriction on contact with Talos IV was waved for this incident. Look at how many people would have had to been executed. Everyone on the Enterprise and probably everyone on Starbase 11.
 
The Menagerie I & II

Starbase 11...is this the same starbase as last week? So they had Kirk's court martial, they flew away, then Spock faked transmissions for them to turn around and go back? If Pike was there last week, why let the ship leave without him at all? Why didn't anyone tell them Pike was there last week?

Pike's chair seems so primitive even by today's standards. Stephen Hawking could talk and manipulate computer screens with his eyes. But then, if Pike could communicate it would ruin the plot.

Kirk: "Then I suggest that tapes can be changed!" Yep, Kirk knows all about that now. He just got burned on that one. In airdate order, Court Martial comes after The Menagerie and that line has less meaning.

Oooh, Spock's a bad boy.

Looks like the Navigator of the Week is...no one!

Vulcans CAN lie obviously, it's just unusual.

Doesn't the starbase have any other ships to pursue Enterprise? No other starships or at least bigger ships with better speed and longer lasting fuel supplies? Just last week there were other starships at Starbase 11.

This is an interesting look at the computer accepting programming and controlling the ship. Preview of M-5.

Scotty hears the ship is under computer control and can't be undone and says so much with one word: "Dammit."

Dang, any more someone's getting court martialled every week on this show.

Spock was asked if he wanted a lawyer. I wondered if he was going to look up Cogley.

Hmmm, I feel like I've seen this adventure of Pike's before...

Pike says "engage" like Picard will later.

Now Pike's landing party seems better equipped to me. They have jackets--with pockets!, bags, containers, goggles.

Doesn't Scotty have a dress uni?

"From a stellar group at the other end of the galaxy." I didn't catch last time that that was how far Pike's Enterprise travelled. If only Voyager could travel to the other side of the galaxy so quickly.

THE WOMEN!!!! Never gets old.

It didn't make sense to me that Spock pled guilty early in the proceedings, but then continued to present evidence, and then the panel voted on his guilt. Didn't he already plea?

Do Vina's girl parts still work to make babies as old and banged up as she is?

This episode makes me wonder how Kirk's crew would have handled this adventure. What if Kirk was captured by the Talosians?

I like how Kirk or in this case Spock routinely break the rules only to have Starfleet routinely come in to tell them it was okay.

So last week when Kirk was on trial and Spock was in command, he was plotting with the Talosians to take over the ship and get Pike to Talos IV?

It may be what Pike wants, but it still seems so creepy to me to live a life of illusion under the constant watch of the Talosians. I mean you're going to want to have sex at some point, right? Live a horrible reality as yourself or live a happy illusion controlled by others. Tough call.

An okay episode to let the viewers see The Cage since it wasn't broadcast and save money on production costs, but not the most exciting episode if you've seen The Cage recently.

No new aliens since we've seen the Talosians before, so the Alien Watch remains.

Talosians
That big ugly Rigellian guy Pike fought in illusion
Vina as an Orion girl in illusion
Glimpse of other aliens captured by Talosians
Ron Howard's brother
That dog from Enemy Within
Salt monster
That hand plant...Gertrude
Spock (duh)
Charlie's parents (Thasians)
Romulans!
(Ruk)
Miri's planet kids (bonk bonk)
Giant ape creatures of Taurus II
 
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I hate to give Timo credit,
Me too, believe me.

but... Vina initially was an illusion.
No she wasn't.

She really wasn't at the SS Columbia crash site. She even disappeared after leading Pike to the entrance. Later in the cell, Vina disappeared again. She must have been an illusion that time as well. Vina must have been in a separate cell elsewhere. Yet her illusion walked around with the Enterprise crew once they escaped Pike's cell. She was an illusion of a whole, normal looking woman the whole time until the very end. So, was there a real Vina? For story purposes there must have been, but the evidence is that she was an illusion the whole time. If there was a real Vina, she was locked away in a separate cell.
She could, and I believe was, very much present at the crash site and with Pike in his cell. The Talosians made the illusion of her disappearing and took her away. I mean Pike's disappearing from the cell and appearing on Rigel 7 and his home and the Orion trader place. Maybe Pike was an illusion and the real Pike was never on Talos to begin with.
 
They could have used illusion to edit Vina from Pike's consciousness. She might really have been there.

It does seem curious to use a different commodore if this went into production following Court Martial. You would have thought that they would just have extended the contract.
 
Me too, believe me.


No she wasn't.


She could, and I believe was, very much present at the crash site and with Pike in his cell. The Talosians made the illusion of her disappearing and took her away. I mean Pike's disappearing from the cell and appearing on Rigel 7 and his home and the Orion trader place. Maybe Pike was an illusion and the real Pike was never on Talos to begin with.

Real Vina could not move as fast as illusion Vina. And her beautiful healthy appearance was definitely an illusion.

Did they edit Vina's presence when she disappeared from Pike's cell?

There really was no reason to have Vina or any caged specimen walk around, not when they had such realistic virtual reality. Nobody need ever move. Just plug into life support and enjoy the illusion.
 
*This is one of the few times where following production order does not make sense in viewing. We were just at Starbase 11 last week and now we are back again. Last week Commodore Stone was in charge and this week it's Mendez. It definitely would make more sense to have this episode further away in the viewing order from "Court Martial." Fun fact, "Court Martial was produced first but shown 10 episode AFTER this 2 parter.

*So, Pike wasn't at Starbase 11 last week? Was he being moved? Was he there and we just didn't know? He's been hurt for months. Did Kirk's court martial worry Spock? Surely these plans were in motion for a while now

*Starbase 11...is this the same starbase as last week? So they had Kirk's court martial, they flew away, then Spock faked transmissions for them to turn around and go back? If Pike was there last week, why let the ship leave without him at all? Why didn't anyone tell them Pike was there last week?

I believe that Starbase 11 was called Planet M-11 in earlier scripts. I don't think Rodenberry was identifying the two episode's planets as the same while writing his script. It would have made more sense to leave it at that.
 
General Order 7. Death penalty for anyone going to Talos IV. No contact whatsoever. They even have a special security binder about the encounter from 11 years ago. Yet nothing is in the binder? I mean, that file does not explain the reason for the quarantine of Talos or the death penalty. No mention of Talosians or the ordeal Pike went through. So what does the binder contain? What happens if the Ferengi or Klingons or someone other than Starfleet arrives at Talos?

That's above your pay grade, Mister.
 
Real Vina could not move as fast as illusion Vina. And her beautiful healthy appearance was definitely an illusion.

Did they edit Vina's presence when she disappeared from Pike's cell?

There really was no reason to have Vina or any caged specimen walk around, not when they had such realistic virtual reality. Nobody need ever move. Just plug into life support and enjoy the illusion.
I'll acknowledge that given the Talosians' powers, there's no way to know for sure what's real in any given scene. I would disagree that Vina was ONLY illusion and that no real Vina was ever there at all. I know you're not saying that, but that's the impression I got from Timo's argument.
 
I'll acknowledge that given the Talosians' powers, there's no way to know for sure what's real in any given scene. I would disagree that Vina was ONLY illusion and that no real Vina was ever there at all. I know you're not saying that, but that's the impression I got from Timo's argument.

Well, yes. For purpose of the plot, Vina was real. Otherwise there is no story. Dramatic irony shows the audience Vina exists.

Which brings up a tech question. Talosian Bob and the rest are watching Vina and Pike interact on a monitor. Now, they are projecting the illusion directly into both their minds, but watching the drama on a tech device.

What?



Yes, Shore Leave is next.
 
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